Eliot Page; a positive example of masculinity?

[juoist]

I shared this news story in a group whatsapp and my year 8 daughter just told me that the same thing happened in her assembly recently.

I mean, this is batshit insanity and totally goes against what the Cass review states.

It’s out and out grooming. Clearly Page is an example of something other than positivity, whenever I see them being interviewed , they seem deeply depressed and miserable.

Are any of the boys in her school going to see Page as a man? Are any of the girls going to see it and wonder if their clothes choices and hairstyle mean they’re also a man? Why are schools still pumping out this unhealthy rhetoric for young teens? It’s insane.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14924669/Primary-school-trans-actor-Elliot-Page-lesson-masculinity.html

Bailey acts like no one on FWR is familiar with Pronouns Are Rhohypnol and its author.
Bailey is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

by having lots of plastic surgery = cis women & men ☑️
feeding your body with synthetic hormones = cis women cis men ☑️
taking part in stereotypical male interests = cis women & men ☑️

Yeah, big deal, behaviour is an expression of feminine/masculine human inclinations for everyone.

And I don't know how many "true selves" Page has had. Hetero, bi, homo, trans etc.

Yeah, big deal, experimentation how humans learn, adapt & innovate. Welcome to reality.

Really? I thought you could 'always tell'.

This thread has some of the dumbest TRA arguments I’ve seen on here for a while.

COMING SOON:

'Please' & 'thank you' is crack.

So when the inevitable detransition happens, will that be another valid "true self"? And was the trans stage another experimentation?

'Detransitioners' are hardly the norm.

Still waiting for the 'avalanche' of litigation that never was.

Why the need to put in the term in quotes? Are they not valid? Are you denying them their existence? Why are detransitioners not the norm, but trans is? Detransitioners rights are human rights.

What is interesting is that some people think it is merely respectful to act as if you believe someone else’s subjective belief that doesn’t reflect material reality while it is not considered respectful for people to remain true to their own materially evidenced beliefs.

There is a lack of symmetry there.

What is also interesting is how it is also interesting how some people dismiss the harm in allowing other people to believe the person who complies to the language demand believes in that subjective belief when they don’t. It acts to normalise that belief and allow the harm of that language demand to be dismissed because of the false perception of support.

After all, if people feel compliance is ‘just politeness’ and ‘respectful’, it is more likely that they will comply and feel shame if they don’t. The whole thing relies on social pressure or the false perception of social pressure.

It staggers me that people are surprised that boys are driven to Andrew Tate et al when they tell boys to be more like a woman who has taken testosterone.

Are trans people role models for anyone outside of the trans community?

There's a bit in that esquire interview where Page says that thems best friend since childhood supported the transition and they just loved hanging out. He is a (presumably Cis) male.

Page clearly adores him and I did wonder if the next step would be for Them to come out as gay.

There is an issue in the USA about the time limitations expiring for the detransitioner cases.

You really seem to have lost the argument if this is your come back.

How can people make that decision if they cannot see the person being referred to? You really are just flinging anything to see if it sticks.

This report about Howlett is a good example of how a person’s sense of reality is changed not knowing that Howlett is male.

Definitely not working for me. EP is the exact opposite of what I aspire to. In fact, watching pictures of EP tends to give me strong dysphoria, because I then have to ask myself, "Do people feel as weird around me as I do around those pics?"

Not saying EP is doing anything wrong, but a model of masculinity? Nope.

I'm sure there's something deeply psychological that the model of masculinity is a "man" with no penis and testicles, and presumably the model of femininity is a castrated male. We're going back centuries to when the Castrati were widely celebrated, and there's something safe about a man with no sexual function or penis.

Again, highly suspicious of the entertainment industry that promotes individuals that are being kept in a childlike state.

They aren't 'valid' as trans people because they were never trans & by all accounts this is a small minority. It's no different than a person who was misguided about their sexual orientation & realised or finally acknowledged they were gay after being married with children. Some people are confused about their identity, sexual orientation & other personal qualities which is part of the human condition. How many of us have made life altering decisions that we later regret because that's not who we really are that have led to a life of unwanted consequences? Many of us could argue we didn't have full agency because of our immaturity or ignorance but that doesn't entitle us to deny the existence of others who didn't because of it.

You act as if the existence of detransitioners invalidates the existence of trans people but it doesn't all it does is validate the existence of ignorance & the necessity for better screening & education. But as we all know the best screening & education in the world won't change someone hell bent on following a path they might regret. Just like women who can no longer legally access abortion find an illegal unregulated way so will those seeking to medically transition.

They aren't 'valid' as trans people because they were never trans & by all accounts this is a small minority

A small minority of what? What’s the denominator? A small minority of people who alter their bodies with hormones and surgery? This is an unknown. No one has studied it.

You act as if the existence of detransitioners invalidates the existence of trans people

The existence of detransitioners invalidates the idea there is a solid method of accurately determining if someone is “trans”, if a child is “trans”, and who should and shouldn’t get hormones or a mastectomy at 13.

all it does is validate the existence of ignorance & the necessity for better screening & education

Explain how screening and diagnosis could be better then. How do you determine which 13 year old girls should get a mastectomy and which ones shouldn’t?

A small minority of what? What’s the denominator? A small minority of people who alter their bodies with hormones and surgery? This is an unknown. No one has studied it.

Research indicates low reporting of detransition.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9516050/

The existence of detransitioners invalidates the idea there is a solid method of accurately determining if someone is “trans”, if a child is “trans”, and who should and shouldn’t get hormones or a mastectomy at 13.

Just as there isn't for being gay. Does that invalidate homosexuality?

Surgery isn't approved for under 18's in most countries. Cross sex hormones is usually at 16 or above.

Using the language of CSA to describe a trans person chatting to schoolchildren, seriously?

CSA is violent, life-destroying abuse. Please don't trivialise the reality of that.

Children know trans people exist, and will encounter them in person as they get older. They need to be taught tolerance and respect for difference, and well done Page for giving his time.

Being trans is a very hard life, and no one chooses it because they heard being trans is possible.

Just another example of recycled homophobia, of the kind common during Section 28.

Being trans is not contagious, and no one is conspiring to make children trans.

Trans children attend school in very small numbers, but very few get through it due to the violence and harassment they suffer. Teaching tolerance is not 'grooming' oh my god that is so offensive to survivors.

The paper you linked is literally titled “an increasing phenomenon” 😂. It describes varying studies showing potential detransition rates as high as 34%.

Did you actually read it?!

Just as there isn't for being gay. Does that invalidate homosexuality?

I said detransitioners invalidate accuracy of determining the claimed identity. Are there comparable consequences of not accurately determining if a child is gay or not? Does a determination of being gay or not at 13 send someone on to get their breasts removed?

Surgery isn't approved for under 18's in most countries. Cross sex hormones is usually at 16 or above.

Theres a multitude of children who have had mastectomies and there are minors under the age of 18 who have had genital surgeries. There are also a multitude of children who have been placed on CSH below the age of 16. A major issue with WPATH’s SoC8 was the removal of lower age limits for these things.

Do you actually know anything?

The paper you linked is literally titled “an increasing phenomenon” 😂. It describes varying studies showing potential detransition rates as high as 34%.

Um, did you understand it or are you deliberately misrepresenting the results? Detransition is mostly temporary & the reasons aren't because of mistaken identity.

I said detransitioners invalidate accuracy of determining the claimed identity. Are there comparable consequences of not accurately determining if a child is gay or not? Does a determination of being gay or not at 13 send someone on to get their breasts removed?

Again, gender affirming surgery isn't legal at 13 AND the consequences of GAC don't invalidate existence. This is what's called a non sequitur.

Theres a multitude of children who have had mastectomies and there are minors under the age of 18 who have had genital surgeries. There are also a multitude of children who have been placed on CSH below the age of 16. A major issue with WPATH’s SoC8 was the removal of lower age limits for these things.

Its not legal just like heroin isn't so what's your point?

Um, did you understand it or are you deliberately misrepresenting the results? Detransition is mostly temporary & the reasons aren't because of mistaken identity.

Um, no, that was just a description of a finding from one particular paper. It wasn’t a conclusion. The paper describes a wide range of possible results and reasons from different papers.

Again, gender affirming surgery isn't legal at 13 AND the consequences of GAC don't invalidate existence. This is what's called a non sequitur.

Wrong. So wrong. Gender affirming surgery is not illegal in many jurisdictions and has been done, legally, on children as young as 13.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2796426

This study took place across 3 institutions in a single, large metropolitan city. Patients aged 13 to 24 years who presented for gender-affirming top surgery

The consequences of GAC are that children who say they’re trans can have irreversible procedures like a mastectomy and later realise it was wrong. This invalidates the existence of an accurate diagnosis at such an age.

Its not legal just like heroin isn't so what's your point?

What does heroin have to do with anything 😂 talk about non sequitur 😂.

Placing girls on testosterone at 13 IS legal. It has been done. To a multitude of girls worldwide. Why on earth do you think it isn’t? Bizarre.

Um, no, that was just a description of a finding from one particular paper. It wasn’t a conclusion. The paper describes a wide range of possible results and reasons from different papers.

Quote?

Wrong. So wrong. Gender affirming surgery is not illegal in many jurisdictions and has been done, legally, on children as young as 13.

Where is it legal for under 16 right now? That research was conducted from 2019 to 2021. Be specific.

The consequences of GAC are that children who say they’re trans can have irreversible procedures like a mastectomy and later realise it was wrong. This invalidates the existence of an accurate diagnosis at such an age.

16 year olds are considered competent to make medical decisions by the high court in the UK & many other countries.

Generally, surgery regret is not grounds for denying surgery to others so its only consistent to apply it for all surgeries.

Placing girls on testosterone at 13 IS legal. It has been done. To a multitude of girls worldwide. Why on earth do you think it isn’t? Bizarre.

Where? Right now?

Why are you so obsessed with construction workers? I mean, habe they hurt you? You seem rather invested in calling out their body choices.