Eliot Page; a positive example of masculinity?

[juoist]

I shared this news story in a group whatsapp and my year 8 daughter just told me that the same thing happened in her assembly recently.

I mean, this is batshit insanity and totally goes against what the Cass review states.

It’s out and out grooming. Clearly Page is an example of something other than positivity, whenever I see them being interviewed , they seem deeply depressed and miserable.

Are any of the boys in her school going to see Page as a man? Are any of the girls going to see it and wonder if their clothes choices and hairstyle mean they’re also a man? Why are schools still pumping out this unhealthy rhetoric for young teens? It’s insane.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14924669/Primary-school-trans-actor-Elliot-Page-lesson-masculinity.html

Are you saying detransitioners were never trans? Like they’re making it up? Or that they were mistaken?

but I thought TRA claimed people knew their own gender from childhood and that gender identity was innate? Are you saying gender identity is not innate now?

Clearly not in the case of detransitioners.

But then that poses the question, if GI is not innate, and people can make mistakes in recognising their GI, then parents claiming children as young as 2 (and Stonewall), must be wrong. If GI is not innate ,it must be either a choice or a learned behaviour. It cannot be biological, as the presence of detransitioners shows.

Detrans people don't prove trans is not innate. That's as silly as saying a man who convinced himself he was heterosexual & later accepted he was gay doesn't make homosexuality innate.

No, that actually proves homosexuality is innate. If he had to convince himself he was heterosexual, he obviously knew something was wrong. We must just admit that the presence of detransitioners proves GI is neither biological or innate.

The point is the detrans convince themselves just like the gay man who was initially straight did.

People convince themselves they are trans? But that must mean it is not innate, but a learned or chosen behaviour. To convince themselves they are trans, they must be getting the inspiration and idea from somewhere. I think this is why the gender ideologists hate detransitioners so much. It just proves that trans is simply a social construct, and not biological.

Quote?

what do you mean “quote” 😂. That’s the paper! When you read it 😂😂

Where is it legal for under 16 right now? That research was conducted from 2019 to 2021. Be specific.

The USA. Australia. Loads of other countries. There is nothing explicitly banning surgeries. Do you really think girls aren’t still getting mastectomies?!

16 year olds are considered competent to make medical decisions by the high court in the UK & many other countries.

What does this have to do with the accuracy of determining someone is trans?

Generally, surgery regret is not grounds for denying surgery to others so its only consistent to apply it for all surgeries.

Wrong. There is no blanket rule that says “approve surgery, approve all surgery.” Different rules can apply to different things.

Where? Right now?

Everywhere! What makes you think testosterone is banned by governments? Girls can get it in the USA, Europe, Australia at least. There are plenty of girls on it.

Do you know anything?😂

People convince themselves they are trans?

Yes just like gay men convince themselves they are straight. Just because people are confused or in denial about who they really are doesn't delegitimise others who aren't.

Well it kind of does. You can’t argue children know their gender from a young age, if some of those who claim to have known this later admit they were mistaken. Either GI is innate and immutable, so children should be placed on medical pathways such as PB, or it is not, and therapy is the only solution needed. Detransitioners disprove the claim people “are the best judges of their GI”, as obviously, people can be mistaken or pressured into believing in GI.

what do you mean “quote”

The quote that says 34%. Quote the details from the paper that prove what you saying. You won't because you know its not there.

The USA. Australia. Loads of other countries. There is nothing explicitly banning surgeries. Do you really think girls aren’t still getting mastectomies?!

False. Its over 16 in the USA & Australia.

16 year olds are considered competent to make medical decisions by the high court in the UK & many other countries.
What does this have to do with the accuracy of determining someone is trans?

You really are quite the dishonest interlocutor. The context in this discussion was your lie that 13 year olds were legally able to obtain gender affirming surgery & cross sex hormones.

Oh the irony of a thread where GC's cry their right to speak the truth is being threatened by pronouns when all they ever do is lie. You would think if they were at all secure in their arguments they wouldn't need to.

Wrong. There is no blanket rule that says “approve surgery, approve all surgery.” Different rules can apply to different things.

Um, are you ok? The point was generally regret wasn't grounds to refuse access to surgery. If it was surgery for just about everything would be banned & in fact gender affirming surgery has one of not the lowest regret rate.

Everywhere! What makes you think testosterone is banned by governments? Girls can get it in the USA, Europe, Australia at least. There are plenty of girls on it.

False.

Lay off the prosecco luv.

Elliot Page is playing Achilles in the new Odyssey movie who in the ancient texts is described as very tall, muscular, powerful and radiant with flowing blonde locks. Why have they cast Elliot Page in that role?

Yeah? Now do gay. Still waiting.

Well in your example above, the man had to convince himself he was heterosexual, which implies he knew something was wrong doesn’t it. Therefore sexuality may be innate. Now if you had said a man who knew he was straight later realised he was gay then you may have a point. But you didn’t.

the presence of bisexual people(you do know they exist right?) show that people can be attracted to both sexes at different times in their lives. Maybe the guy in your example was bisexual. Who knows? Funny how the TRA forget about bi people when trying for gotchas isn’t it?

The quote that says 34%. Quote the details from the paper that prove what you saying. You won't because you know its not there

This study found that the 4-year gender-affirming hormone continuation rate was 70.2% with 81% for the transfeminine group and 64% for the transmasculine group

36% discontinued in the “transmasculine” group. Even higher than my typo.

False. Its over 16 in the USA & Australia.

In Australia there is no law banning it. It’s just considered not acceptable. There have been 15 year olds who have had mastectomies.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderau/s/i6NQjkKuTJ

You really are quite the dishonest interlocutor. The context in this discussion was your lie that 13 year olds were legally able to obtain gender affirming surgery & cross sex hormones.

I posted a published paper that had 13 year olds getting mastectomies.

Here is more evidence:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11211955/

Hormones:

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

Why do you think this no longer happens?

The point was generally regret wasn't grounds to refuse access to surgery. If it was surgery for just about everything would be banned & in fact gender affirming surgery has one of not the lowest regret rate.

That isn’t true. At all 😂

False.
Lay off the prosecco luv.

😂😂 you’re weird, claiming “it never happens” here and thinking that’ll wash.

It's the other way around for gay men.

Gay men convince themselves they are straight because they are forcefully taught by society that being straight is the normal thing to be and that being gay is weird.

According to you, detransitioners go the opposite way: they convince themselves they are the weird thing to be because... Reasons??? Like, why would they choose to go opposite what society tells them to be, if it's just a matter of being in denial? In denial of what exactly? Of being perfectly average?

Your comparison makes no sense.

Also: by definition, detransitioners are absolutely trans during all the time they say they are trans.

Was just about to say this

but baileys ‘argument’ doesn't work if she does it that way round

its either a gay man convincing himself he is gay and a transwomen convincing themselves that they are not trans

or

a straight man convincing himself that he is gay or a man convincing himself that he is a transwoman

Gay man straight obviously

its early 😬

This study found that the 4-year gender-affirming hormone continuation rate was 70.2% with 81% for the transfeminine group and 64% for the transmasculine group
36% discontinued in the “transmasculine” group. Even higher than my typo.

Discontinuing taking hormones doesn't mean you discontinue being trans. There could be any number of reasons why for not continuing with hormones that don't include detransitioning. I knew you didn't understand the paper.

False. Its over 16 in the USA & Australia.
In Australia there is no law banning it. It’s just considered not acceptable. There have been 15 year olds who have had mastectomies.

Gender affirming surgery for minors is considered as a 'special medical procedure' & as such requires court approval based on the individual circumstances. To try & pass this off as some blanket approval for GAC surgery for minors is simply disinformation.

Why do you think this no longer happens?
Oh stop lying. I never said it doesn't happen I said its not legal.

That isn’t true. At all

Is knee surgery banned given the regret rate? 🤡

Cope. There can be a myriad of reasons why person was misguided about their sexual orientation such as unconscious repression, lack of experience, social pressure or just confusion where none of that makes sexual orientation purely environmentally influenced & that applies just the same to trans people.

Isn't there an interplay now, though, with sexualities and gender identity.

Page, for instance, came out as a lesbian (a woman attracted to other women), but is now identifying as a heterosexual man (a man attracted to women). So was the lesbian realisation a misstep or the trans man realisation.

Or both?

You seem very keen to say detransitioners were not really trans and trans is not a social construct. Detransitioners prove this. If it was biological, detransitioners would not exist. Cope harder 😁

A pp said Page is playing Sinon, the man who convinced the Trojans to take the horse into the city (and became a byword) for treachery. I have seen that she's supposed to be playing Achilles though. The ghost of Achilles, diminished and filled with regret.

I wouldn't say femininity is derided per se, what is derided is the idea that being female or being a woman should be defined by reference to how much you comply with or identify with femininity. Or that femininity should be enforced on women who don't want to.

What's strange about this usage though is they actually seem to mean positive role models of men who diverge from stereotypical masculinity.

I think it's indicative of how mixed up people are about the terms men/male/masculine. Not even masculine really means the stereotypes (or average behaviour patterns bailey talks about), it's still inextricably linked to men and boys.

Edit oh bother lost my quote again. And the post has moved on so far I can't immediately locate it either

Dear me, detransitioners were never really trans. Offenders convicted of sexual and violent offences aren't really trans.

Whatever happened to acceptance without exception, I am what I say I am?