Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

From TT:

Thursday, 9 July. The first afternoon session in Tempest v DEFRA and the Rural Payments agency is expected to start not before 2 pm. QT'd thread has links to our Substack, background on the case, abbreviations, etc.

HH, barrister for the Rs, will continue her cross examination of Caroline Airs, CA. CA was an Inclusive Practice and Senior Policy Advisor in the Defra group HR EDI team during the relevant time. She has since retired.

^Her witness statement can be found on our Substack or via this direct link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ti31udYEpJUFjdW4ua77SOyDnVFt7Dct/view^

We will return when the session begins.

<CVP has been opened but courtroom is empty>

I really don't understand how HH is being allowed all of the time. She seems to be just asking the same questions over and over and over and over again...

How many times has she's asked about the PSED now?

You are all wrong about the mumsnet reply. It was

Dear CS

No.

Kind regards

Mumsnet

I am a CS, I work for Defra and I changed my username to post on the other thread. I am also Spartacus.

Bet yours doesn't include gerbils. (Mine does)

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/product/nest-of-vipers-tote-bag/

From TT:

We have been admitted to the video conference, proceedings should resume soon.

HH you said
NC I'm sorry to jump in, but should we do some stock taking on time. Having discussed over lunch with HH, it is of utmost importance that we finish this witness by tomorrow. I was wondering if we should sit a bit late this evening, and start early tomorrow

Not a popular suggestion I know. But intervenor should have adequate time for examination.
J its a perfectly sensible suggestion, if we're short of time. HH, how much longer with this witness
HH at least 3 hours <wail of oh noooo>
J we all have our styles, but perhaps reading out documents is

HH is going to take another THREE HOURS.

😑

I wore my suffragette cat shirt from this collection just yesterday.

I genuinely don't know what new things she can ask?

Why aren't the barrister's for Rs bringing up WORIADS? HH keeps wanting witnesses to admit that if someone can say TWAM on Yammer then before long someone will be allowed to say something racist. I would have thought that AL or NC would then ask the witnesses if they are aware what it means for something to be WORIADS or not and how that is imbued in the understanding of why it's not just a free-for-all because women are allowed to speak about women's rights?

From TT:

not that helpful. How long NC?
NC at least 3 hours, I may need to prune my qs ...
J how much later today NC
NC how about 5 pm
J well 5 today is fine, 9:30 am tomorrow is better than 9 am. Is that okay with you CA?
CA as long as I have a break this afternoon

AL I make this point with forlorn optimism, I have another witness, John Calvert, and we'd like his evidence today or tomorrow
J we would have to interpose him
AL end of tomorrow if minds are focused....
J not optimistic, we will have to see
HH back to post about MW

How on earth can HH possibly justify three further hours?

3 hours of 'but didnt anyone think of the Transes?' Gosh sounds enticing.

Surely, if they started controlling what people saw based on pc's they could be accused of treating them in a discriminatory manner? of course, they can give the people control over what they can and can't access, and it sounds like that's what they tried to do.

Argggghhhh

Hopefully NC / AL / J will intervene a bit more when she starts asking the same Q multiple times.

CA at point 77 of her statement (can't copy it) mentions worthy of respect in a democratic society

fucking hell!!!! 3 fucking hours! Someone rain this barrister in.

My fear is that it will be 3 hours of
'didnt anyone think of the Transes when they sent this email? and this one?and what about these two? and then this one? and have you read this one? and if you haven't read it, why haven't you read it? and what about this email?'
and so on...

I hope I'm wrong.

reign. fucksake

reins grrr

@Rightsraptor That sounds awful. I hope you’re all better now. ❤️

I was amused by the fact that SEEN members were having an actual grown up discussion about the MW thing (documentary?) and having varying points of view and HH making out they were some sort of evil for not having groupthink that it was literal genocide.

From TT:

email from AM to DEFRA business support team, AM is complaining about various complaints from DB, and a link has been deleted, says 'we deleted one of these comments on Friday', it looks as if 6 June 2023 that AM or colleagues are doing the 1st stage of moderation themselves

CA it does look like that. There was some confusion around this time about what system we were working under. We reminded everyone new system from 1 Aug. It was also looked at by mod panel as it's in the log (spreadsheet).
HH you said in response to q from J that EDW had not

been consulted on offensive posts guidance, but your note to NB says you talked with EDW,
CA I must have spoken to her not about the guidance but about the issues listed there.
HH asking about failing to moderate posts by EDW and taking steps to prevent discrim acts by her, one <bold is mine, WTF?>

Three hours !!! I have a pool i need to get in to

Don't you just love the English language. I was illiciting sympathy yesterday. (I was suitably shamed by another poster)