Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

HH LGBTQ staff face higher rates of b, h, discrimination etc

HH is quoting figures as if they were all about the T [surprise surprise] whereas they also refer to LGB employees.

From TT:

CA [answers yes to all.] One of reasons we're here is there are those that say hearing GC statements amounts to b & h. One of reasons we are here is around that issue. People will say they have experienced b & H from hearing GC beliefs.

There was a follow up section in the survey I think, but I haven't seen breakdown in survey for reasons people give for saying they have experienced B & H. I do not say that t people don't experience more B & H in the workplace, but I don't know how much is because of hearing GC beliefs and how much of it is in relation to actual incidents.

<this is where I punched the air>

I love CA

Is it an actual incident or reality based words.

Oooh she sounds nice, maybe I'll see if I can join in when her and NC meet up for drinks

Some of those LGB might be GC, might even have joined SEEN. It's not impossible it was the T who were doing the bullying.

CA effectively differentiating between "actual incidents" ( of B&H) and imagined incidents.

We know that B&H for t'other side often means something as innocuous as reading Harry Potter, or discussing women's health, or mentioning male violence.

These sorts of surveys are not providing good data.

<ok, the court is on a 10 minute break and we're several minutes into that, so I'm going to get a long cold drink and will catch up TT when I get back>

CA.. I do not say that t people don't experience more B & H in the workplace, but I don't know how much is because of hearing GC beliefs and how much of it is in relation to actual incidents.

Fully agree with pp.

Give the number of confirmed, proven complaints. As opposed to a bit of subjective whingeing.

Breaktime comments.

CA is very much a grown-up.
CA is grey-haired and appropriately dressed for a court hearing.
CA is not intimidated by the judge.
CA speaks clearly and firmly and is not afraid to challenge HH.

How does any definition of bullying work when a cohort of people have been encouraged to believe that anything less than complete capitulation to their demands is unacceptable, and who have actively gone looking for things to be offended by? Goalposts are going to inevitably be moved?

Also, Defra has a policy in place to deal with bullying. If someone is being bullied at work, DEFRA should be dealing with it swiftly. Of course, there must be substance behind the claims. People expressing view in a survey could mean anything.

I hope @Boiledbeetle is not offended when I say she looks and sounds just like my minds eye vision of her! (I cannot see her feet to see whether she's wearing crocs)

Finding the actual number would be a feat. ED said she "forwarded" a lot of complaints, whatever that means.

"I made multiple complaints to Cabinet Office about SEEN's website content. My complaints were directed to Jason Ghaboos at the Civil Service Inclusive Practice ("CSIP") team. People were not going straight to Jason – they were coming to me as network Chair, asking: "What are you going to do about this, Emma?" I was forwarding complaints and raising my own. On one occasion, I had to apologise to Jason for sending him two separate complaint emails in a single day about two different issues. That was the volume of what was happening, despite the relatively low number of transgender or intersex civil servants."

(Point 20 of ED's WS)

Edit: a word

Wow- great to have a witness pointing this out so that NC doesn’t have to

From TT:

HH TW are more likely to experience it though.
CA Yes
HH Can I have five minutes to check my notes.
J Yes [adjourns]

8th July, pm.
This is the 8th July second afternoon session in the case of Samantha Tempest v DEFRA & Rural Payments Agency. Caroline Airs will continue giving evidence as witness for the Respondent.

J Happy to proceed
HH Thank you. It's that Friday pm feeling and it's only Wednesday
HH Looking at particular challenges faced by TW. p397. Article taking deep dive into trends in CS surveys. Under gender gap
J This is article about survey not survey
HH Do you know who Becky

HH Thank you. It's that Friday pm feeling and it's only Wednesday

Know what you mean😏

I wouldn't be surprised if she's NOT wearing Crocs.

It's a style very few can pull off with quite the panache I do.

And fewer still have the courage to wear purposefully odd Crocs socks!

<I have relocated back to the lounge where it is a pleasant 24degC. I have a garden office like Ben Cooper (preens) complete with support wren, thrush, robin etc, but when the sun hits it on days like today it gets unbearable and is currently 32degC>

HH Do you know who Becky
uh-oh, if I was Becky I'd be afraid, be very afraid..
what is HH going to reveal about Becky?😱

Well, if there hadn't been so much dead horse flogging yesterday a person might feel less jaded.

They should have compared it against their actual complaints and how many dismissed or upheld etc.

From TT:

Smith is.
HH No. Think taken from raw data.
HH It shows further divergence in discriminatory trends for TW - risen - while TM reported fall. And compares against non-t remaining steady.

HH Trend on inclusion has plateaued. 80/81 % while for t was 77/78% in 2023 and t 75% in '24. Declining inclusion scores. That's what it shows
CA agrees
HH TG people at work: rates of H&H risen but reporting levels have plummeted for reporting b & H, in contrast with non-t staff

<oh god are we going to go round another set of circles>

Please tell me they are not your feet!