The first step towards an international instrument to abolish surrogacy.

[TheywontletmehavethenameIwant]

"A group of states at the United Nations has launched a political declaration calling for an international moratorium on surrogacy, marking a significant first step in what its supporters hope will become a global abolitionist framework."

UN States Launch Political Declaration for Global Surrogacy Moratorium ━ The European Conservative

"That is a long road. But for those who oppose the buying and selling of babies and the exploitation of women, the fact that states have now placed the issue formally on the UN track is already the point: the market is global, and the response is beginning to become global, too."

I not sure I have any faith in the UN anymore, but hopefully this will gain some traction, I can see it clashing with the Global Left's Utopian ideals though.

Are the armed forces the gold standard for age?

I don’t see your answer to my question- why is it exploitative when it’s women, but not when it’s men?

The armed forces use evidence based - scientific - methods to determine suitability for roles based on age.

I haven't answered your question because it's daft bordering on childish and in the same vein as claiming a 36 year old man = young sperm donor because average life expectancy is 80.

So you don’t actually have any sort of constructive argument?

I do, but I'm not wasting it on you.

So, you don’t. Or you’d make it.

You are certified childish.

I really don't give a flying fuck whether you think I have an argument.

I got involved to demonstrate why the argument you were making was without merit.

I succeeded.

My work here is done.

I would say surrogacy is exploitative for women because of the physical effects of pregnancy on a woman to actually grow a baby. Or are we talking about egg donors vs sperms donors?

There's so much more to it than the birth.
The woman grows and nourishes the baby, theres microchimerism, the baby is exposed to the same hormones if she's stressed, anxious, excited... It knows her heartbeat and voice, body temperature. Her body will produce milk ready for the baby. There's such a lot to pregnancy it really undermines it to just behave as though the woman's body is just a storage container, which is what a lot of surrogacy agencies like to pretend.

I am not saying carrying and birthing a child is the only way to become a mother.

(As a side note, if the egg is not the surrogate's the risk to them is increased further.)

https://brilliantbeginnings.co.uk/how-much-can-a-uk-surrogate-get-paid/

Expenses for altruistic surrogates are not clear cut in the UK and if a woman on a low income could make an extra £15,000 on average I imagine it may sway them.

Babies deserve not to be sold, whether that is for cold hard cash or for the warm feels and ‘expenses’ of the altruistic surrogate. Each baby is a person who deserves to know their mother, not to know that their genetic material was ‘donated’ like a bag of blood.

I find it terrifying that there are women out there who can carry a baby and disassociate so much that they can hand it over to someone else after birth, their natural instinct should be to protect it, and after the dreadful case in the news recently of the adopters who abused and murdered the poor baby they’d adopted I’d hope potential surrogates will give a second thought to what may happen to the child they sell.

It is very sad that some people are infertile, but just because we can do something doesn’t mean that we should.

I think in the context of how bad maternity care is in the UK right now I'm very against anything that dismisses what women go through to carry and birth babies. It should be respected as the serious business it is.

But is it the side effects that make something exploitative, or the act itself?

Surprised to find myself a European conservative but here we are.

A family member was extolling how marvellous it was her friend met a gay couple with a baby from a surrogate in Columbia at a wedding recently. I found it appalling not cause for celebration.

'Donor-conceived & surrogacy-born people' presenting at the UN in 2019.
https://www.wearedonorconceived.com/guides/donor-conceived-people-present-at-the-united-nations/
One has had open contact with her birth mother and wider family and seems entirely grounded; others much less so. Some of the responses to the realisation that they were commissioned, paid-for, and given away by the mother who bore them, are heartbreaking. The lack of an identity and even of a genuine birth certificate to help you track down your blood relatives is an extraordinary violation of a child's rights. And that's without considering the global coercion of impoverished women who are forced into undertaking dangerous pregnancies, often repeatedly, in order to make money for partners or existing children. It's an appalling form of human trafficking making billions for surrogacy organisations.

And considering the UK’s maternal mortality rate is currently 12.6, that of a second world country, and surrogacy takes place most commonly in:

Ukraine 15
USA 17
Georgia 20
Mexico 42

If a woman has such poor care in the UK, how horrendous must it be for the women in these countries?

I have mixed feelings on this.

We suffered infertility for years, did ivf and had a miscarriage, so on one hand I 100% understand the emotions behind just wanting to start your family, even through unconventional means. I get that empty, longing feeling and the desperation that comes with it.

On the other hand, we also went through most of the adoption process and in that was a whole lot of learning about how a baby is traumatized when being removed from the birth mother, losing a voice and heartbeat of their only source of comfort, and how this affects children who have been removed from the birth mother as newborns.

Ultimately it has to be about what's best for the child, as much as it is painful for the adults involved.

I noticed this headline in the Times

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/adoption-horror-exported-z6ssq0kkf

The article is by Sarah Ditum who usually writes well on the subjects she chooses. Unfortunately the Times seems to have the measure of archive.ph, so I've not been able to read it. Does anyone have a share token? Or be willing to post a summary?

Except the baby often has no genetic link to the person who carried them.

No medical risk to a man donating sperm

Medical risks for egg donation
Medical risks for pregnancy/ child birth

Risk to the child from being removed from their mother at birth.

Risks of exploitation all round.

Your entirely missing the fact that many of these babies are implanted as embryos and have NO getup link to the surrogate at all.

But if we allow the ones that you think are worthy it risks opening the door up to the more exploitative arrangements. Surrogacy started as the former and has morphed into the latter.

*genetic

I completely agree. So long as the pregnant person and child aren't being abused or exploited, surrogacy offers something for both parties.

There's a reason anti-surrogacy and anti-trans activism are pushed by the right: the goal is to set precedents for controlling what women can do with their bodies.

Surrogacy allows women to escape the heartbreaking exhaustion of IVF cycles (something also in the right's sights) and pursue their lives and careers.

The movement to ban it is profoundly homophobic and anti-feminist, dressed up (as usual) as "protecting women". It's why violent men enjoy being part of it - they want to play saviour and talk over us.

Infantilising women by removing their ability to make decisions and their bodies isn't progress. I think you've made excellent points.

Are you assuming every family member is equally loved, every family member is accorded equal respect, and no family member is vulnerable? That because money is not involved, neither is pressure?

Let's go through some family scenarios then.

Golden Child daughter is not only Too Posh To Push, she doesn't want to 'get fat' with a pregnancy and it will interfere with her busy work schedule. Scapegoat daughter is pressured into carrying and bearing the child. The entire pregnancy is spent with her every movement, everything she eats/drinks being closely monitored and controlled by her Golden Sister, Narcissistic Mother and Enabler Father. She is not included in the post-birth family photograph because the child isn't hers, she's only the aunt. Photo is 'Mother', Doting Grandparents and baby. Her PND from having the child she carried and bore is ignored, she is constantly nagged for being 'a downer' and expected to 'babysit' whilst Golden Child Sister continues to galavant about.

Gay brother persuades childless sister to get pregnant with her own eggs by artificial insemination from his partner, because then he will also have a genetic link to 'his' child. So, not only does she carry and bear the child, she is the actual mother. Brother had promised that she will be a big feature in the child's life, but then there are tensions (sister had not expected to feel this overwhelming protective love) but the paperwork has already been done and legally her child is his. Sibling relationship breaks down and brother/partner/child move several hundred miles away, ostensibly 'for job opportunities'.

Two female cousins, one with a medical condition that prevents her carrying her own child. Other cousin actually volunteers to carry child, having had two successfully and healthy pregnancies herself and really wants her cousin to have her own family. IVF takes place and is implanted into volunteer cousin. There are unexpected complications with this pregnancy and volunteer cousin is left with birth injuries that curtail her own life and mean she has to give up her job, impacting her family financially. Receiving cousin feels guilty and cannot face seeing her now-injured cousin. Wider family breakdown between aunts / uncles / grandparents ensue.

I could come up with more, but I'm sure this gives a flavour of the absolute can of worms such a surrogacy can open. And I haven't even glanced in the direction of how the child will feel about their origins and how they will feel about having been passed from one family member to another like some sort of possession / favour, and how that would affect how they feel about their birth mother, legal mother, the wider family who colluded in it - and most importantly, how they feel about themselves.

Mind your own business.