Has there been an influx of TRAs to Mumsnet recently?

[ByTheRiverside]

I'm a long time reader. Only recently started to participate.

I very rarely saw any TRAs on here over the years. But in the past few weeks, I've noticed a lot of them coming here.

You can generally tell by the absolute shite coming out of their mouths, such as being avid apologists for sex offenders.

What's their deal with coming here? Are they saying that their 'womanhood' is reliant on us conforming to their belief, so they're trying to get us to agree with them? If that's so, then welcome!!! You're going to have to get used to reality real quick if you stick around.

Has anyone else noticed this, or just me?

The Cass Report explicitly said was a not a singular cohort but multiple cohorts with complex needs.

One of the problems we have has been about treating trans people as a single group rather than multiple groups who sometimes actually have conflicting needs.

We know there is a middle aged cohort of AGP men who are very very different from the cohort of sexually abused / autistic / etc teenage girls (see Hannah Barnes for the full list over represented vulnerable groups). However these girls are a useful group for men who have sexually motivated interests to hide behind and act as spokesman for. When you write it down like this it really is creepy.

Yes - sexually motivated APG men (Inc some who freely admit they are apg) speaking for a cohort of girls who are significantly over represented in the number who are sexually abused or otherwise extremely vulnerable. This needs saying out loud because these two groups have some pretty big conflicts of interests going on.

They very much do need separating out and we should be very conscious of how young people may be being used in this manner.

No one wants to see this because it's inconvenient. However duty of care means we have to see the individual needs and the individual risks that individuals have.

We can not and should not be allowing males into female spaces for this reason alone.

If we were to look at a 'hierarchy of needs' where we see and recognise:
Vulnerable women who have suffered sexual abuse
Vulnerable women from religious minority groups
Vulnerable trans identifying teenage girls
Vulnerable middle aged trans identifying males

Guess which one is the least vulnerable?

This is precisely why some seek to lump all trans people together and to silence women.

The people who are pushiest in the movement are the ones who are least respectful of women and girls.

I know the stat's bullshit.

Utter, complete, transphobic bullshit.

There is no registry of trans women, for pity's sake.

There is no plague of trans women attacking cis. The same few photos of horrific individuals (whose crimes I would never excuse) are endlessly recycled* while cis men who rape women wherever they want without consequence. Even when found guilty.

Trans men exist too. And that's because for some people, their outward gender doesn't match the inner. Some dress according to gender stereotype, some do not.

It's just another "this minority is naturally sexually aggressive" but of bigotry from the exact same people who continue to deal in racism, homophobia, antisemitism and Islamophobia.

*A note on that. Exactly when are anti-trans campaigners going to start thinking about the victims of Isla Bryson and others? Do you really think they want to be retraumatised by seeing their attacker's photo & name, or the details of their attacks discussed? Weaponising their pain and trauma is unforgiveable.

I’ve never attributed any motivations to trans individuals. I don’t know what their motivations.

where I’ve been clear is that im entitled to single sex spaces, im a rape survivor and my need for them is grounded in that experience.

the law allows me sex based protections and single sex spaces.

why can’t trans individuals either use the facilities that align with their birth sex, or use a fourth space (and campaign for one if none exists)?

why do their rights trump mine?

A timely reminder, I think, of the It Will Never Happen resource thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?page=1

@TransParentlyAnnoyed why can’t trans people use the facilities that align with their birth sex, or use a fourth space and campaign for one if none exists?

*A note on that. Exactly when are anti-trans campaigners going to start thinking about the victims of Isla Bryson and others? Do you really think they want to be retraumatised by seeing their attacker's photo & name, or the details of their attacks discussed? Weaponising their pain and trauma is unforgiveable.

Deflection and blackmail. That's all you have.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed "A note on that. Exactly when are anti-trans campaigners going to start thinking about the victims of Isla Bryson and others? Do you really think they want to be retraumatised by seeing their attacker's photo & name, or the details of their attacks discussed? Weaponising their pain and trauma is unforgiveable."

You want to know what actually does retraumatise women who've been victims of attackers in confined spaces that they thought were single sex?
Having to deal with the fact that they might encounter a member of the opposite sex in a confined space that they thought was single sex.

Women's spaces are for women. Not for some men who wish they were women.
Don't pretend you care about those victims. If you did, you'd understand why pro-women campaigners don't want any male-bodied people in women's spaces.

'Transwomen' are men, and the stats do not even hint at them sexual offending at the same low rate as women

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison =
16.8%

^committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/^

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Trans men exist too. And that's because for some people, their outward gender doesn't match the inner. Some dress according to gender stereotype, some do not.

1. There's no such thing as "inner gender".
2. What does that have to do with transwomen being more likely to sexually assault than anyone else?

Well, the way you are being ignored across various threads makes me think that you don’t exist in TPA’s eyes!

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

One could argue that since only 0.02 percent of the male imprisoned population in 2019 were trans, that trans women are very much less likely to commit any crime than men, since the estimate is that between 0.1 and 0.5 percent of men identify as trans.

Or, doing further analysis, According to ONS, the male population aged 18+ in 2019 was approx 26.2 million. So 0.003 percent of men were imprisoned in 2019.

Taking the mid point of the estimates, that 0.25 percent of males identify as trans, that would be about 65500 transwomen in the UK, of whom 129 or 0.002 percent are in prison. So slightly less likely to offend than men and be convicted. If one chooses the more conservative estimate of 0.1 percent of mean, the figure of 0.004 percent of them in prison means 1 extra trans offender per 1000 transwomen compared to 1000 men.

So whilst one might argue that a transperson committing crime is more likely to be committing sex crimes than a man committing crimes is likely to be committing sex crimes, 99.998 percent of transwomen are not in prison, and of that 0.002 percent that are, about half are there for sex crimes.

76/65500 is 0.001 percent of transwomen committing sex crimes and being convicted. That's 1 in 1000

13234/26.2 million is 0.0005 of men committing sex crimes and being convicted. That's 1 in 2000

So overall both males and transwomen are overwhelmingly not criminals. Sex crimes appear at around double the rate in transwomen, and thankfully that is still incredibly rare and 999 in 1000 transwomen are not being convicted of sex crimes.

Well, that's a classic tactic of TRAs, isn't it? Ignore anything and everything that doesn't agree with your opinions. Facts are just suggestions for that lot.

Mind you, I like sticking out like a sore thumb in the threads where TPA appears. It's a statement to lurkers in itself.

So overall both males and transwomen are overwhelmingly not criminals. Sex crimes appear at around double the rate in transwomen, and thankfully that is still incredibly rare and 999 in 1000 transwomen are not being convicted of sex crimes.

Hmmm...but the issue is that the rates of sexual offending for men, including trans-identified men, are way higher than for women, and no-one can tell in advance which men will sexually offend. Which is why women are safeguarded against men in situations where they are vulnerable.

So whilst one might argue that a transperson committing crime is more likely to be committing sex crimes than a man committing crimes is likely to be committing sex crimes

Sex crimes appear at around double the rate in transwomen

Yes, that's precisely what was being argued: transwomen are far more likely to commit sexual crimes than non-trans men, let alone transmen. So I don't understand what your protestations are about?

How about an answer to this @Diverze ? I asked nicely, using trans-english.

The percentage of men committing sex crimes is high enough to exclude them without being called sexist.

So if the offending rate for transwomen is higher per head of population then men, then we absolutely should not be allowing them into women spaces either and shouting 'transphobia' if we do, is really grossly unfair.

The issue comes down to the fact that we greatly increase the risk to women by allowing either into women's spaces.

And that it turn comes down to either men budging up to accommodate transwomen or third spaces being available because this is a male issue and not one for women to expose themselves to being potential collateral damage because we point of the risk to women and girls and want it mitigated.

@Diverze seems to want to do away with any safeguarding for women, whether the men are trans or not

I have been through this many times on previous threads. I don't have the bandwidth to do so again. Sorry.

Wherever did you get that idea from?

Pointing out that the VAST majority of trans people are law abiding and not sex offenders, whilst continuing to acknowledge that women are entitled to maintain single sex spaces, and that imo trans people need to acknowledge that they are valid but different, doesn't anywhere suggest that I want to do away with "any safeguarding" for women.

It's just on here with those same faces (such as Bryson) being shown over and over a casual reader could be surprised to discover that only 1 in 1000 transwomen is likely to be a sex offender. For example, early in the thread someone suggested that transwomen just want to rifle through the sanitary bins and masturbate. Stats show that almost all don't in fact want to do that. Which doesn't mean that transwomen should access those spaces, regardless.

It's just on here with those same faces (such as Bryson) being shown over and over a casual reader could be surprised to discover that only 1 in 1000 transwomen is likely to be a sex offender.

Most people consider that a man using a women's space is crossing a boundary and is, therefore, more likely to be inclined towards sexual offences. The proportion of trans-identified males using women's spaces seems to be much higher than 1 in 1000, your child notwithstanding, so that will add to the perception, rightly or wrongly, that many of them are a danger to women.

The cause seems to have gone from No Debate to If you can't baffle them with 'trans' science bore them with complete bullshit.

I'm having that, thanks, just because it's succinct, funny, and it's too hot for me to think my own thoughts today! 😁

Ah, the question that we never get an answer to, because none of you have one. 'Knowing you are male but saying you are a trans female' is completely devoid of meaning.