Organisations refusing to give their single sex spaces policy - David Lloyd for example

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

I have been trying for a long time to get a written policy out of David Lloyds for about a year. they are still refusing to do so.

Anyone got any suggestions? And What other orgs are refusing to do it?

Is this the next trench we have to fight in? Getting the damned thing written down?

SSSIS, Good letter. Let's hope you get results.
The only thing you might want to add to any further information you give them is that your daughter is a minor. Who could potentially be expected, as a condition of her payment of membership fees, to undress in view of an adult male.

That might help focus their minds on what is important here.

Finally managed to get this logged as an official complaint. Have been sent a holding email
whilst they get their position together.

Yes, yes of course I’ll get flamed for this but i don’t really care. I’m GC - I don’t believe anyone can change sex, and think women are entitled to penis-free spaces. Yet I’m sympathetic to the plight of some trans people, recognise they exist & aren’t going anywhere, so it’s important we start to make space for them. They’re human beings like everyone else. It’s honestly become so boring and pointless hearing people constantly complain, worry and bang on about a situation that is very, very unlikely to ever happen to them!! Firstly, only 0.1% of the population are trans women. How many of those trans women do you think would be bold enough to get naked in a changing room surrounded by women, with their dick swinging about all over the place?? I’d say about 0.001%. That would be the behaviour of a sex offender, not a regular trans woman. Because everyone, even the trans woman, knows it’s not appropriate for a penis to be hanging out in a women’s changing room. Also, trans women hate the fact they have a penis, they want to be seen as women, so why on earth would they want their penis to be seen? 99% of them will be changing in cubicles. And it sounds like the 1% of freaks with a fetish who want to expose themselves will not be allowed in the women’s changing room anyway. David Lloyd’s ‘case-by-case’ policy sounds sensible and fair to me. They’re only able to have a case-by-case policy because trans members are so rare! Even in Brighton. So you can imagine how rare they are in other places. Case-by-case is considering the needs & comfort of all people- eg. A fully post-op trans woman would at worst be at risk of serious harm in the men’s, and and at best, find the experience humiliating. Whereas in the women’s it’s unlikely anyone would even notice! Their body looks female and they have no penis. Them using the women’s makes the most sense for everyone in that situation. However, if a big hairy “trans woman” comes in who clearly just self-IDs as trans, and hasn’t had any surgery, it would be inappropriate for him to use the women’s. It sounds like this is exactly what David Lloyd are doing. They’re trying to be inclusive, but not to the detriment of women’s safety, which is commendable. And also very tough for an organisation. But all this worry about it is all totally pointless anyway because I guarantee no one on this thread has ever or will ever see a man with their penis hanging out in a women’s changing room!! It’s like someone starting a thread about being concerned about being hit by lightning and asking how to avoid it - for which the chances are probably higher. Everyone would think they were mental 🤣

How many of those trans women do you think would be bold enough to get naked in a changing room surrounded by women, with their dick swinging about all over the place??

How many does it take before women and girls are allowed to get undressed and changed without a man watching them?

This whole post is the "Persuasive TRA" in action:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5536989-be-kind-20-and-the-persuasive-tra?page=1

They have a space

It's the men's

Or, their own house.

Does anyone know Emma to get this thread on her radar?

But all this worry about it is all totally pointless anyway because I guarantee no one on this thread has ever or will ever see a man with their penis hanging out in a women’s changing room!!

Have you been living under a rock the past 15 years? Or perhaps born yesterday?

Oh, I know! You were born 15 years ago! Now it all makes sense.

@Waitingforthesunnydays Yes, yes of course I’ll get flamed for this but i don’t really care. I’m GC - I don’t believe anyone can change sex, and think women are entitled to penis-free spaces

Then you go on to tell us that, in some circumstances, you don't think women are entitled to penis-free spaces. Bizarre post.

A few weeks ago I took my 5 year old DGD swimming at my local club ( not DL) and as we entered the ladies changing room a naked man emerged from the showers . Penis fully on view so please don’t say it doesn’t happen .

At my David Lloyd there is a notice in the ladies changing rooms stating that children over the eight of eight must use the changing room for the appropriate sex (can’t remember the exact wording) and I understood this to mean that biological males over the age of eight aren’t allowed in the space.

ive never seen any males apart from little boys in there and for some reason assumed DL had a sensible (and legally correct!) position on this.

Presumably the TRA argument is that TWAW so the rule doesn’t apply.

It really demonstrates how sinister the ideology is when words literally don’t mean anything any more

so it’s important we start to make space for them

If, 10/15 years ago, trans people had wanted support to campaign for more gender neutral and mixed spaces as an addition to single sex spaces, there are lots of us who'd have had their backs and joined the campaign. I know I would.

But they didn't. The TRA movement demanded to take access to single sex spaces and didn't give a toss for anyone who said "No, hang on a minute, I'm not happy with that". Those people who raised even the mildest of comment were shot down in a hail of "NO DEBATE BIGOT" from a movement that had done its best to undermine women's rights by getting policies in under the radar. Those people ended up losing access to spaces because they were either banned for their "bigotry" or self-excluded.

So the fact that the chickens have come home to roost, women fought back and now there is not only a dearth of mixed sex spaces but people aren't interested in helping the angry toxic TRA movement, is hard cheese. I'm not 'making space' for people who tried to screw women over and are trying to wheedle their way into our spaces via "Can't you just beee kiiiiind?". They're on their own now.

@Waitingforthesunnydays But all this worry about it is all totally pointless anyway because I guarantee no one on this thread has ever or will ever see a man with their penis hanging out in a women’s changing room!!

I've seen a man with his dick hanging out in a woman's toilet.
Does that count?

BTW:

Their body looks female and they have no penis

A man will never be female.

A man's body will never "look female" because you have to be female to have a body that looks female.

Chopping off body parts will never make a man female or "look female."

I could pick apart every single sentence in your post, but SSSIS said it best earlier.

Men can use the men's. If they can't handle that, they can reframe their trauma or stay home. We are done being told what we should or shouldn't have to tolerate in our own spaces.

@SidewaysOtter I completely agree with you. Any potential goodwill has been squandered and I now take every chance to challenge ALL case by case wheedling.

Yup: it's a case of FAFOFO.

Fuck around, found out, fuck off.

I don't think many, if any GC women think trans people shouldn't be allowed their own spaces. Imagine how much progress could have been made in the past decade if TRAs had focused their energies on fighting for that, instead of to have access to women's spaces??

The problem seems to be that many of them don't WANT their OWN spaces. That's not 'inclusive' or 'others' them or some other excuse. They want access to WOMEN's spaces. Whether that's for validation or because they want access to vulnerable women or whatever doubtless varies from person to person.

Women shouldn't be made to feel unsafe/uncomfortable so that a subset of men (however they choose to identify) can feel comfortable. Every single woman has as much right to safety and comfort as a trans woman. So why do so many people think otherwise?

Several years ago I encountered a trans woman in my David Lloyd women's changing room. I didn't see them change but I saw them in the swimming pool - men's boxer swimming trunks and bralette - and when I got out, they were fully dressed, standing in the women's locker room, on their phone, just standing there, dressed all in black, traditional male clothing ( black parka, trousers, boots, sun glasses). So obviously a man standing there - it was incredibly intimidating. The following week I was putting my bag in a locker and there were two other women doing the same next to me and he came up, fully dressed, and pretended to look for sth in the upper locker - there was nothing there but he got to hover over three semi naked women.

I complained by email but got no response but I am pretty sure he stopped using the ladies after that - he either uses the gents or changes at home.

But anyway, he didn't need to be parading around naked to be intimidating and inappropriate.

PS @Waitingforthesunnydays whether or not any trans women expose themselves in changing rooms (and there are documented examples, so it does happen) is actually irrelevant. The fact is, there is nothing to STOP it happening. That in itself is threatening to many women. Just as a dark, lonely street is threatening to many of us. Nobody tells women to just suck it up and walk down the dark street alone. Nobody says 'oh I feel fine about walking down there, so you should too.'

I suspect that many of those who don't seem to think other women genuinely feel fear when their safe spaces are invaded by males have been fortunate enough to never find themselves at the mercy of a violent man. To know that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop that man doing what he wants to you.

Waitingforsunnydays, yep, you’re getting flamed, not because you have a different point of view, but because your arguments don’t make any sense. I’ll take the ‘case-by-case’ one.

You acknowledge that at least some men who claim a trans identity would pose a threat to women and/or children if they were allowed in their changing rooms - hence on a case-by-case basis, you agree that some would be excluded.

Here’s the thing, do you really think that the DL receptionist will be able to tell at a glance which men asking to access the women’s changing room are the abusers? If they get it wrong, the victims have to live with that for the rest of their lives. Big call! Still worth it?

Only one of many arguments I have against your post…..

(sorry, edited because I hit send to soon on previous post)

The changing and toilet spaces that trans people need (especially the male ones) are fully unisex ones either intended for both sexes and all genders (like poolside showers where no-one takes off their swimming costume) or closed off single-user ones.

Not rooms with partly shielded toilet or shower cubicles with shared drying or handwashing space between which are intended for men or women separately.

David Lloyd’s ‘case-by-case’ policy sounds sensible and fair to me.

Then you've obviously not thought it through.

if a big hairy “trans woman” comes in who clearly just self-IDs as trans, and hasn’t had any surgery, it would be inappropriate for him to use the women’s.

Where would you expect a big hairless transwomen to go who has changed all his documents to female and is taking hormones,wants to use the women's facilities and hasn't had surgery? Are you really expecting David Lloyd to do this "case by case" and get it right all the time? And are you really expecting some poor receptionist to have that conversation?

I got a response. What do you think?

Thank you for taking the time to raise your concerns and for your recent conversations with xxx,
General Manager. As Regional Manager for Brighton Club, I am responding to you as part of the final stage ofour escalation process.

I understand that you have requested further information regarding the Club's approach to changing room and toilet access and are seeking greater clarity on this matter.

As xxx has previously explained, like many organisations, we have been awaiting guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission to help clarify the practical implications of recent legal developments within a leisure facility setting.

Following the very recent publication of guidance, we are currently reviewing what it means in practice for our clubs and members. This work is ongoing, and we will ensure that any actions required are implemented within the relevant statutory timeframe. As such, we are unable to provide any further detail beyond our current approach at this stage. For completeness, I have outlined that approach below:
At this time, our approach is to carefully balance the needs and concerns of all members at club level, in line with the Equality Act 2010, what we know from the Supreme Court ruling, and relevant guidance across the industry.

We always consider the specific facilities available at our club as well as our legal responsibilities when making decisions. When an individual presents as transgender, we take the time to understand their needs and discuss what's most appropriate for them and for our wider membership.

For clarity, all David Lloyd Clubs provide separate male and female changing rooms as a minimum, with some clubs also offering additional separate changing facilities.

Please also note that boys aged 8 and under may use the male, family, or female changing rooms.
I appreciate that you have also raised concerns regarding the way your enquiries were handled by the Brighton Club, including your requests for escalation and a meeting with the General Manager.

I am sorry that your experience did not meet your expectations. We value feedback of this nature, and I will ensure your comments are shared with the relevant teams as part of our ongoing efforts to improve communication and member
experience.

I confirm that records relating to your complaint will be retained in accordance with our standard business practices and legal obligations.
Thank you again for bringing these matters to our attention.
Best wishes,

What a load of waffle.

Sent a follow up...

Sent a SAR....

Prepping a Letter Before Claim

Agree, that was a word salad.

What a load of nonsense from them - do they honestly think everyone is as ignorant of the law as they are?

I'm interested in their case by case basis - are they got to insist on a peek into the underwear of customers on each visit to establish this?