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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 6

1000 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 07/07/2026 01:35

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-5

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 14:40

MarieDeGournay · Yesterday 14:35

I'm thinking more Ayres than Ayers

I went into the ladies' room
And there I found a bloke
He said he was a woman
I said that was a joke
I told him he was just a man
He said that was a slur
But I said 'You'll always be an him
And I'll always be an her.'

Not in any way inspired by a certain beloved poet😏

You're right!

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:40

<we're just starting>

OP posts:
ProfLargofesse · Yesterday 14:41

Thoughts:

When NC uses the word bigot J has a visceral reaction and demands she tone down her language. This seems quite remarkable, particularly given how willing HH and ST have been to bandy the word bigot about. Why did he have such a reaction, uncalled for, to NC?

There has, in my view, clearly been backroom chatter about NC and a legacy of Stonewall training but is that enough for the J to expose himself this way? I don't think so. I think there must be more to it.

Before the ET starts the panel meets in private, as far as I understand it, to discuss case management having read the documents. I suspect that something has been discussed in that meeting which has set the J on this course of behaviour. What could it be that has taken him to this extreme position where he is assuming that NC is being emotive purely and simply to be emotive and assumes there is no logic to her questioning other than that. That she somehow is geared up to provoking emotional responses rather than working to expose the bias and lack of logic in the general reactiveness to SEEN.

The panel members have somehow established that the J needs to control GC language, that GC's are inherently transphobic and he needs to be careful not to allow that in. I think that must have been brought up in response to NC's request to use correct sex language and which resulting decision exposes the J's lack of understanding of the ETBB guidance. I am presuming that in that meeting, and in the discussion that developed from considering that request, some comments have been made about NC and her approach that have caused the J to make those assumptions.

Today NC did excellent logical work in the face of it. With even mumsnetters inclined to dismiss her approach before we got to the key points she got NB to agree to:

  1. There could be no equality impact assessment because it would be impossible to do that reasonably in an environment where impartiality doesn't actually exist as a foundation. Thus demonstrating to the panel that the lack of an equality impact assessment can't be found to be to the detriment of Rs. THAT IS AN EXCELLENT POINT and so important given HHs desire to make that central to claims of hostile working environment.

  2. That there was nothing remotely troubling about GC/ SEEN posts and the only troubling material were the comments from TRAs. THIS IS SO IMPORTANT because it undermines the credibility of the witnesses to a huge degree. You can't claim harassment if you are the one, in chief, doing the harassing and your whole claim about harassment is dependent on how the workplace responded to YOUR harassment rather than any harassment originating from others than YOU!

  3. The other point NC hit home was the fact that in her committment to being seen to be fair and reasonable, NB has demonstrated that she is willing to overlook consistent bad behaviour and significant bad behaviour (JH). This is hugely significant because it again undermines the credibility of the witness. They have not been passively in receipt of false expectations, but have been active participants in generating a culture of bad behaviour that is so intimidating even NB, a rational intelligent and calm witness otherwise, is willing to kow-tow.

The J/ panel can argue against the points NC is making but it is extraordinary that he doesn't seem to be willing to even see that she is making significant points he will need to consider.

WonderingWhetherToHaveABurgerOrChips · Yesterday 14:41

I'm flabbergasted that a judge sat in a tribunal and said he wasn't there to chose sides. Surely that's the very definition of making a judgment, picking a side?

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 14:41

CriticalCondition · Yesterday 14:35

Liverpool crossed my mind at one point but I dismissed it when I heard pronunciation of other words. Can't remember what they were now! I have got distant relatives up there but I'm no expert!

The tribunal is being held in Leeds, so most of the accents are probably Yorkshire ones, or else the N.E accents of the Judge and HH.

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:43

From TT:

AL My instructing solicitor will be joining us part way through - not a discourtesy
J Hard to believe sometimes there is a world out there. These long cases are a bit like that.
J Moving on to Caroline Airs [ affirms]
AL Please find your WS, Ms Airs.
CA One point to clarify.

CA Para 50 re Matt Walsh post. Way it's written it seems to imply post inc link to documentary and it didn't. Wanted to be absolutely clear.
AL Is that all
CA yes
AL Read WS recently
CA yes
AL True incl your clarification just now?
CA Yes

OP posts:
lcakethereforeIam · Yesterday 14:43

BettyBooper · Yesterday 14:39

Thanks!

The typo is probably mine! What is PSED?

Public sector equality duty. I had to look it up yesterday 😀

ickky · Yesterday 14:45

Sounds like the Judge is losing the will to live.

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:45

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 14:41

The tribunal is being held in Leeds, so most of the accents are probably Yorkshire ones, or else the N.E accents of the Judge and HH.

I'm from the North myself, and I would say P1's accent resembled Ringo Starr. It's about an hour from Merseyside to Leeds on the M62, it's not outer Siberia. In fact Leeds can be easier to access from Liverpool than areas of the NE.

OP posts:
NotInMyyName · Yesterday 14:47

BettyBooper · Yesterday 14:39

Thanks!

The typo is probably mine! What is PSED?

I think its defined in NBs witness statement.

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 14:47

ickky · Yesterday 14:45

Sounds like the Judge is losing the will to live.

Not a bad idea.....perhaps we could get another one?

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 14:47

J Hard to believe sometimes there is a world out there.

What? A world exists outside of Employment Tribunals?

I refuse to accept that.

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:47

From TT:

HH You worked from 2021 for Defra as incl advisor. Reported to Sarah McNally as head, and in team with Bal Toor. And Bal reported to Nicola
CA yes to all
H Your team offered specialist EDI advice to Defra and ALBs
CA yes
HH And NDPBs
CA
Yes

HH Re Yammer. Senior person from EAg approached you c post which was t-excl and had been taken down
CA Yes
HH AM's post?
CA yes
HH You were aware of Forstater and gave advice based on that
CA yes
HH Because Defra had oversight/control over Y re EDI
CA HR business partner

wanted EDI advice rather than it being to do with Y. Run by EDTS - digital team. Short answer to your q probably yes
HH July 2022 EW approached you, she worked for NE. Did you know EW and AM were considering forming Network?
CA Yes
HH Not even in July 22
CA Not that I recall

OP posts:
ickky · Yesterday 14:48

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 14:47

J Hard to believe sometimes there is a world out there.

What? A world exists outside of Employment Tribunals?

I refuse to accept that.

BIGOT

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 14:48

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:45

I'm from the North myself, and I would say P1's accent resembled Ringo Starr. It's about an hour from Merseyside to Leeds on the M62, it's not outer Siberia. In fact Leeds can be easier to access from Liverpool than areas of the NE.

Leeds accents are nothing like Liverpool accents. But to a southern ear they might sound similar...generic 'northern'. But yes, people from Liverpool do travel.

Hyenana · Yesterday 14:48

Public sector equality duty

Edit: this was an answer to someone's question but at least the 3rd time recently that the quote got lost - anyone else having this problem?

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:49

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 14:48

Leeds accents are nothing like Liverpool accents. But to a southern ear they might sound similar...generic 'northern'. But yes, people from Liverpool do travel.

Edited

Did you mean to sound so patronising?

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 14:49

H Your team offered specialist EDI advice to Defra and ALBs

I involuntarily groaned out loud at that.

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 14:50

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:49

Did you mean to sound so patronising?

Do you?

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:51

From TT:

J Para 5 you say was request you arrange t awareness training in EAg. And refer to Forstater. Did you arrange training.
CA No. Convo moved onto Forstater. Went in diff direction

J Did you think post t- exclu
CA No. Acknowledged IWD and listed 4-5 women's names AM said admired. Inc Julie Bindel, Kathleen Stock - not sure. I think they were all known to have made GC statements publicly

HH Had made public statments
CA They had done other things to. Okay to mention them
HH Many women have done things around women's rights. These names are provocative by AM
CA Lots of women have done various things around w rights. Lots could have been mentioned

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 14:51

ickky · Yesterday 14:48

BIGOT

Embarrassed Shame GIF

😶

WomanInnaWoods · Yesterday 14:53

Is the correction (that there was no link) from this witness about Mueller's Matt Walsh documentary post? Because if so, ouch.

From ST's WS:
"Mr Mueller posted a link to and endorsed the Matt Walsh “What is a Woman” video, stating that Walsh “absolutely did something interesting here.”

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · Yesterday 14:53

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 14:30

P1 sounded posh Merseyside to me! Mild version of Ringo's accent.

Wirral?
Otherwise known as a posh scouser, I married one, took me a while to get my ear in but it's definitely a thing.
What was the childrens programme with the Why Bird and Poppy the Cat?
Both posh scousers, amused the DH no end.

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 14:53

Ooh. Has a new Mumsnet feature just appeared?

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 6
CriticalCondition · Yesterday 14:54

I'm familiar with Ringo Starr's accent (thank you DS and Thomas the Tank Engine) and, to me, P1 didn't sound anywhere near as Scouse as that! But I'm not from the North so I'm respectfully stepping away from this now. Smile

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