Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 6

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-5

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

So, have I got this right...

The CS continues to follow a GI policy (that was based on a model written by a:gender) that allows anyone with Special Feelz to use whatever SSS they like, contrary to the law?

Even after FWS and Darlington Nurses?

And have just admitted this in court?

And want us to believe they are a neutral organisation?

Okidowki then.

I think NC said it was the culture generally then J asked her to explain what she meant by culture

Naomi has been silent so far when her learned friends are doing their thing. I wonder if she’ll start objecting if HH uses terrible words such as bigoted and unsafe from now on. Just to highlight the unequal treatment.

This by the J I felt was very pointed given his irascible responses to NC:

J Will it take much longer. No criticism
AL Needing to go through my notes, takes time.

AL ( Alex Line) interjected....with that question......the suggestion being that certain individuals within the organisation were responsible for pushing GI.

Whenever I see the name 'Carolyn Ayers' I can't help but think of 'Tony Ayers' - from Alan Partridge. Tony Ayers was the controller of the BBC and it would be him that decided if Alan got a new series or not. 😁 ( "Eat My Cheese")

Personally I feel if several layers of employees of the organisation make GI-focused messaging part of their professional outward presentation (digitally and IRL) that the organisation can be said to endorse those views.

Is it unexpected from an LGBTetc champion, as a handy example from earlier? No, but the function and title alone endorse GI heavily, nevermind the fact that there were several networks of this flavour and a pretty sweet head-of-network paid gig for several years.

The things NB admitted to might not have been delivered in an earth-shattering way, but they are damning as they pile up.

Yes, let's hope so. As well as taking notes when that occurs

I saw that one of the comments on EDW’s post was from Tara W. Would that be Tara Wolf, convicted criminal for harming Maria MacLachlan at Speakers’ Corner?

I was at the hairdresser. Getting my long hair dyed and trimmed, for I am a laydee.

I have a hoarse voice for reasons that don’t matter, would that be considered vocal fry? It is a great tragedy to me that I have lost my previous mellifluous tone and can no longer sing. It’s not affected.

I am also angry that the EHRC original guidance was wrong and not compliant with the Equality Act.

I used to think it was Stonewall’s influence, and I’m sure they helped everyone think that trans people were allowed to use the facilities of the opposite sex, but the EHRC guidance may be mostly at fault.

Having studied Law at university (though IANAL), I read the Equality Act and it was obvious to me that there are exclusions from women’s single sex spaces and groups written in the Act (as confirmed by the Supremely Court in FWS). So why has the civil service, the organisation which underpins the government, managed to get it wrong for so many years?

AND STILL GETS IT WRONG TODAY!!!

I am confounded by the J's 'tude to NC and her questioning today.

The case has been brought because ST is claiming hostile working environment and harrassment bcos SEEN allowed to exist as a network.

Within the claim it has been asserted that Rs favour GC and SEEN. There was a very long period of questioning about the SS of DOOM about the claim that Rs were disappearing TRA comments whilst not equally disappearing SEEN ones. Let's remember that this was, of course, without any evidence of the content of the postings. We have now seen that the evidence is that TRA comments were removed because bad behaviour and SEEN post removed bcos of that bad behaviour which fully explains that numerical difference.

Why on earth would the J make a total tit of himself with this:

J what does that have to do with this case
NC R has been accused of being partial to GC

In et another fit of bad temper (which is almost always revealing of a position) towards NC he couldn't even remember the facts of the claim or the days of questioniing about the SS of Doom which the panel chose to pointlessly allow in.

He allowed his bad temper to limit the functioning part of his brain because in order to establish Rs were not favouring GCs, and leading to the point she later made very clearly about there being a culture of GI imprinted on all aspects of managing human resources, she was legitimitaly asking NB to set out the actual bias, not the false claims of bias in the claims.

What I find interesting in the threads is the willingness from so many to consider the J's position reasonable because it must be more likely that NC is somehow behaving badly, being too shrill, or bossy, or 'difficult' rather than the J is operating from some clear presumptions and those presumptions are disabling his brain and his ability to supervise the court fairly.

I am going to try and consider what his bad temper is revealing and come back with some speculations but I would LOVE it if folk didn't automatically presume J's bad temper must be a reasonable position because NC must be provoking it. FFS.

From TT:

Good afternoon. This is the 8th July first afternoon session in the case of Samantha Tempest v DEFRA & Rural Payments Agency. Caroline Airs will be giving evidence as witness for the Respondent. We expect to resume at 2.30pm.

Our Substack page on the case contains all the previous sessions, background information, witness statements (after witnesses are sworn), a number of relevant documents, and a full list of abbreviations:
^https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments^

Sorry about your 'lost' voice @MyrtleLion . You don't 'sound' at all affected on the page so I'm sure you don't in 'real life'.

While we are on voices, for the sake of completeness, I'll add that P1 sounded like a mature male from the North East, I'll have a stab at Newcastle. And P2 sounded like a youngish (40s?) female, possibly Leeds.

P1 sounded posh Merseyside to me! Mild version of Ringo's accent.

I've just looked at TTs abbreviations to see what PTSE is, but it's not listed. Anyone know?

I'm sure they'll try and justify this as some sort of stress test, to solidify that there was absolutely no recourse could be taken against them for allowing SEEN to exist.

Thank you. They think it’s my inhaler and happened when they got rid of CFCs. The particles settle on the vocal cords. One specialist has said, oh dear, never miss, you need your medication. One has said you may be better off on a different inhaler but it isn’t as effective in the middle of an asthma attack.

So I’m stuck. And in mourning. I used to be a public speaker - not all the time, but enough that I would be asked to host things.

<CVP has started, empty court room>

I'm thinking more Ayres than Ayers

I went into the ladies' room
And there I found a bloke
He said he was a woman
I said that was a joke
I told him he was just a man
He said that was a slur
But I said 'You'll always be an him
And I'll always be an her.'

Not in any way inspired by a certain beloved poet😏

Liverpool crossed my mind at one point but I dismissed it when I heard pronunciation of other words. Can't remember what they were now! I have got distant relatives up there but I'm no expert!

@MyrtleLion ❤and 💐

Ringo had the most 'Scouse' accent of the Beatles.I've probably got what many would call a 'posh' Liverpool accent. Fairly neutral but with definite under-tones.

@BettyBooper Perhaps it was a typo for PSED?

This.

I'd also really like it to be queried as to whether there has ever been a rush of concern shared with transactivists about their choice of language and whether they are being harsh, disrespectful, whether feelings may be hurt.

Because I've never seen evidence of this. Ever. It's only women pressured to silence themselves and worry about these men: there is never any equality of expectation or responsibility. And women arguing back are seen as misbehaving.

Equality and neutrality in this issue isn't seen as the middle in most cases - the CS being a case in point - but merely a few inches away from the TRA camp, and that's regarded by them as extreme tolerance on their part. (And bravery on their part, since those inches will unleash hell on them from activists.)

Thanks!

The typo is probably mine! What is PSED?