Why do some feminists oppose misogyny but support gender ideology?

[Doodwhatareyou]

I recently ended up in the man hating side of tiktok, which is a place I tend to be in agreement with. I’ve seen several women bravely battle stupid men in the comments who manage to reinforce everything being said.

I’ve seen a pattern though that these women, who seem to be very up on rules of misogyny, and aware of how problematic too many men are, usually have pronouns in their bio, and occasionally will complain about being bullied by terfs.

I’m baffled.

How can they be so up on patriarchal nonsense yet miss the fundamental misogyny in gender ideology. How can they deny the evidence that trans identified men are just as much of a problem for women if not more as they want women’s rights and spaces.

They can make endless videos about how hateful men are because of the way women are treated, and how women have to budge up and make room, yet trans identified men are women, and anyone who says otherwise is a massive bigot. I don’t understand.

We don’t need clear definitions for man or woman if we are all free and equal.

But we're not all free and equal, are we? Until then, we're going to need those definitions.

The point is, if you try to define sex via something other than sex, the starting position is totally bogus.

Whatever way you cut it, these women are prioritising men's desires over women's rights and needs.

Whether they are straight up doing that or redefining words out of all meaning in order to do that ... the end result is the same

I'm commenting on what I've seen and responded to.

Firstly, we are not free and equal.

Secondly, men and women have completely different reproductive roles. What are you saying here, we should never reference this?

That's your opinion. Other people feel differently because they believe trans women are women so "men" don't come into their thinking at all.

This is the hurdle you have to get over. TI feminists do not see trans women as men.

So... End of discussion? Since, you know, you've literally just described our position?

Anyway work now.

Well no one could argue with that premise as now substantially revised. However, the same would apply in reverse, you shouldn’t prioritise women’s desires over men’s rights and needs either. So all this falls under equality imho. And is not men vs women, but the fact that needs are more important than desires/wants and everyone’s rights end where another’s rights begin.

None of the above therefore mean that trans people do not have needs/rights, even if one were to think it’s a mass mental illness/delusion.

None of the above therefore mean that trans people do not have needs/rights, even if one were to think it’s a mass mental illness/delusion.

GC women don't disagree with that.

And for the record, trans people have all the same rights as other people in the UK.

I'll quickly say this to you specifically. I think that you have to accept that your position isnt really shared with everyone here, because dont you identify as a man anyway? I got the impression you are a trans man. If you really shared any pov with the majority here, you'd fully identify as a woman, irrespective of any internal feelings you have.

Even just the things you post shows that you have a different outlook to the majority here. It seems like you have found some sort of acceptance that validates you here, and that is great, but I don't think you're quite the same as the GC women here.

I'm glad you feel welcome though. Everyone needs a crew.

Maybe you haven't thought much about equality and the development of human rights law.

Racial differences are cosmetic similarities common to people with shared ancestry that change or disappear over generations. Anyone reading comments on X about the Englishness of the England football team will be aware that racism is alive and well, but there is no physical reason to treat people differently because they are categorised as a particular race.

Conversely, sexual reproduction is not going to disappear any time soon, and male and female humans have anatomical differences that mean that, to participate in society on equal terms, women will always need rights that men don't. That is why there are exceptions in the equality act that allow men and women to be treated differently.

I doubt anyone is arguing we should prioritise women's desires over men's rights and needs.

However let me remind you of what is actually at stake here.

We are arguing for women's rights and needs for single sex spaces to be upheld.

The other side of the argument are arguing that this should be dismantled for men's desires to enter these spaces and call them their own. Leaving vulnerable women without single sex spaces for rape counselling, domestic violence shelters, prison accommodation, single sex intimate care, etc, etc.

And you are arguing that this is a 'feminist' position.

As I've pointed out, in order to 'believe' TWAW they have had to redefine the word woman out of all sense and meaning to do so.

They have done this (redefined the word) to accommodate men and put their desires above women's rights and needs.

???? What does that have to do with anything? When I mention the views of GC women, I'm talking based on what I've seen them express here and elsewhere. My personal identity is entirely irrelevant to that matter.

For the record, though:

If you really shared any pov with the majority here, you'd fully identify as a woman, irrespective of any internal feelings you have.

I do identify as a woman - a woman who believes she's a man, thus the word transman. I'm not a man; how could I be, when I have neither a male body nor a male upbringing and socialisation? I am a woman, who presents as a man and hopes to be interacted with as a man. A transman.

Starting out forty years ago, women of child bearing age were seen as risky because we’d get pregnant

And to the extent that things have changed, it's because of sex specific protections against discrimination and rights to contraception and maternity leave.

unable to make difficult decisions because our hormones would make us emotional instead of having hard headed logic and business acumen.

Bog standard sexism, but no woman can escape that by simply claiming to be a man.

and making a huge to do about how debilitating menopause is not for the few, but almost all women.

You don't have to believe that the menopause is universally debilitating to recognise that women need sex specific health care.

You can't protect women's rights by pretending that sex differences don't exist.

Men are more likely to be conscripted than women because of sex differences. (An example of when sex differences may put men at a disadvantage). You can talk all day about the rights and wrongs of this, but if you start from the premise that there are no sex differences between men and women, you are on a hiding to nothing.

Well yeah, trans men are female so…

Hey lurkers (and I know that there are a lot of you out there👋), this is a great example of how this strange ideology took such a hold. You have people speaking with their 'authoritative' voice, insinuating that they are cleverer than you and that you are perhaps a bit stupid or uneducated or bottom set tutorial class to go up against them. Intimidating, isn't it?

However, we are on the internet. These people aren't your work colleagues or neighbours or friends so you can let their insults slide past you and, instead, have a dig around in what they are actually saying.

Many of us have thought for a while that GC women are, perhaps, on average more 'disagreeable' than other women. That is, we are less likely to chase the approval of our peers. This can be a curse as well as a blessing, of course, but it does mean that we act as a brake on people trying to impose views on society though coercion instead of consensus.

I'm not telling you what to think. I'm simply suggesting that you remove all the wrapping from their present and decide if there is anything inside, or is it just an empty box. Be more disagreeable.😘

If you do think that would you place a woman and trans women together in a cell in prison?

@Lexibletheflexible believes that rapists are women if they say they are.

Or a trans man with a man?

Wow.

The patronising attitude built up steadily during this thread, but this post really takes the biscuit.

I think many of us would agree that we have learnt more from @Seethlaw over the last couple of years than from any of the 'trans-inclusive feminists' that have visited us.

What an insulting and patronising post. @Seethlaw do you feel that metaphorical pat on the head and feel warmed by basking in the approval of Lexible? Along with having your pov defined by him/her/them. ffs.

And the suggestion that no one should be quibbling over what shade of skin tone makes a person Black or white? This time it’s a startled wtaf.

Whilst the rest of us need to learn y9 philosophy and get over the hurdle that some women see men as women. Then, what? I’m not sure. Run off into the sunset of rainbows and equality because our reproductive bodies no longer matter and no longer define us.

I guess this means I no longer have to worry about my DDs being raped or abused by men or die in childbirth because biology no longer defines them and I don’t have to worry about uterine or cervical cancer because biology no longer defines me. Phew.

In any event, I do appreciate the patience and many repeated attempts to point out just why women need to retain their sex-based rights (whether every woman needs them or not) and in order to retain them, the definition of ‘woman’ cannot include biological men.

The thornier issue is whether the women who believe in transubstantiation are still feminists. Though that wasn’t the OP’s question. The original question was why some women who see themselves as feminist still support the men’s rights movement that masquerades as TWAW. We’ve seen answers to that question played out here.

@AimsAndObjectives if I agree with you on being more disagreeable.😘 does that make me too agreeable 🤔

@DrBlackbird
if I agree with you on being more disagreeable.😘 does that make me too agreeable 🤔

I'm happy to go along with whatever you decide😘