Draft Conversion Practices Bill - published

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-conversion-practices-bill

We barely have a decent definition of "gender" let alone a definition of "gender reassignment " that everyone agrees on. We would need a cast-iron definition of "transgender identity " before you could even begin to apply this under a Conversion Ban Law, or explain people's rights under said proposed law, or prosecute anyone for not obeying this part of the law.

Do you want to take a stab at defining "gender reassignment " and "transgender identity " so that it covers everyone who is, thinks they might be, is thinking about maybe being, wants to be, doesn't want to be, wants to prevent someone from being, tries to encourage someone to be, etc.?

Because that's what a law will need to do, if we are to avoid a different interpretation from every court case outcome.

ps. And I genuinely would like a definition of these terms, not some activist guff. I am posting in good faith here.

It has been said since this first reared its head that its main purpose was to get this idea of 'transgender identity' written somewhere in law.

I guess this will keep a soon to be 'at a loose end come September' lawyer in work for many years to come.

More takes from X

From LGB alliance

Bev Jackson

It is clearly no coincidence that the draft Conversion Practices Bill has been published almost simultaneously with the plan to press ahead with the puberty blockers trial. The expectation is presumably that opponents will be overstretched and unable to fight both effectively. Gender identity activists always underestimate our strength and determination. Big mistake!

Caroline Farrow
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1h
They published the conversion therapy bill this morning. I’ve read all 20 pages so you don’t have to. It’s worse than the press release admits.

Doctors are protected; the bill carves them out.

Mums aren’t. There’s no equivalent line anywhere in it for a parent.

And “emotional pressure” is written in as something that can make your conduct “abusive.”

So a mum who urges her daughter to wait, to be at peace with her body, is left to a prosecutor’s view of whether that was abuse. She could get up to 5 years in prison.

It goes further. The police or your local council can ask a court to order you to stop, before any charge, before any offence, and even without you in the room to defend yourself. Breaking that order is itself a crime.

Hilary Cass was reassured doctors could keep working. Fine. Now show me the line that protects a mother.

There isn’t one.

It needs stopping

Maya Forstater
The puberty blockers trial and the promised conversion therapy bill are both solutions looking for a problem. The actual thing they are trying to solve is how to legitimise the idea of adult transexualism as being an in born trait which requires extreme societal accommodation.

Rosie Duffield MP

Make no mistake, this will include parents who are convinced their healthy child may simply grow up to be gay and would like them to pause, talk and think carefully before drastic surgery...

Parents convicted of ‘conversion therapy’ face five years jail.

Are you really still parroting the "we don't even know what gender meeeeeeeeeeeeeans" line? This isn't actually a contested issue, the only "Issue" is gender criticals refuse to accept any reasonable definition because you don't want to believe that either gender identity or trans identities exist so you have to pretend it's all too complicated to fathom.

Your gender identity is your internal sense of what sex you are. For most people, this aligns with their biology. For a minority of people, it doesn't. These individuals are transgender. The EA protects these individuals from discrimination if they are undergoing or proposing to undergo a process of gender reassignment. This draft may offer slightly wider protections by also explicitly including non-binary people and it looks like it may also cover people who are trans but haven't "undergone a process" which is reasonable because conversion therapists tend to target people pre-transition so it avoids a loophole where they can get away with this. This doesn't create any conflict with the Equality Act because protecting these people from conversion therapy doesn't have any impact on how service providers and employers operate, which is what the Equality Act governs.

Your gender identity is your internal sense of what sex you are. For most people, this aligns with their biology. For a minority of people, it doesn't. These individuals are transgender.

Well no, they may believe that they are transgender, but we know that many of them change their mind.

Some people might think they are gay for a period of time then change their mind. This doesn't mean gay people don't exist.

I don’t have an “internal sense of what my sex is” other than knowing I’m female, and experiencing life in a biologically female body.

Sex is simply about whether you are male or whether you are female. I’m female, “trans women” are not, so they are not actually women.

Cool. Legislation obviously has to take into account people and experiences other than yours.

Well yes, obvs it has to take into account people experiencing life in their male bodies. We call these boys and men.

It is highly contested. This point was discussed at yesterday's 'Women and Equalities Committee' - when panelists asked " What is the point of a GRA, and what does it convey "?- if it doesn't afford the holder of the certificate ( bearing in mind most trans identified people don't have/or seek a certificate) the right to use assumed 'Sex' based provisions.

Nobody can explain, with any consistency, what a 'gender identity' is....it is always a circular argument that comes back to amorphous feelings and stereotypes.

I didn’t say transgender people don’t exist, I was merely pointing out that feeling an incongruence between internal sense of sex and biological sex doesn’t mean you are transgender like the pp claimed.

Where is the proof of “internal sense of what sex you are” existing in everyone, that can differ from your actual sex?

That angry little footstamp can be heard three counties away.

Right backatcha

Men will never be women, whatever crap sophistry you come out with 🤷‍♀️

We don't legiislate for every possible range of human feeling or sense of self. That would be ridiculous. When something is so subjective, how can one legislate for it?

But they haven't lopped off healthy body parts or taken medication with irreversible effects during the time when they thought they were gay.

And they certainly haven't pushed the idea that confused children should have their bodies irreversibly changed either.

Where is the proof same-sex attraction exists? Where is the proof love, happiness, or hope exists? Where is the proof depression exists? You - obviously - can't see an internal state; that doesn't mean it isn't real or that people don't really experience it.

Maya Forstater
The puberty blockers trial and the promised conversion therapy bill are both solutions looking for a problem. The actual thing they are trying to solve is how to legitimise the idea of adult transexualism as being an in born trait which requires extreme societal accommodation.

This can't be repeated often enough.

Remember what all this is really about. It's all really about adult male transsexuals.

And trans people aren't going to stop existing just because you stamp your foot really hard and wish it so, nor are they going to stop being entitled to rights, recognition and protection, nor are decent people going to stop believing that they are entitled to such, so you'd probably better find a way to come to terms with that reality or the rest of your life is going to be very frustrating indeed.

Why do so many of them change their minds?

Are you really still parroting the "we don't even know what gender meeeeeeeeeeeeeans" line? This isn't actually a contested issue, the only "Issue" is gender criticals refuse to accept any reasonable definition because you don't want to believe that either gender identity or trans identities exist so you have to pretend it's all too complicated to fathom.

Thanks for the "good faith" posting, why do I even bother to think I might get a sensible, well-thought out, adult response from you? You really have blown it. So childish.

Your gender identity is your internal sense of what sex you are.

How do we build a robust law around someone's "internal sense?" Define "gender identity" so it covers everyone that this law will cover and in a way that can be proven or disproven in court.

a process of gender reassignment.
Define "gender assignment" so it covers everyone that this law will cover and in a way that can be proven or disproven in court.

non-binary people

Define "non-binary people" so that it covers everyone that this law will cover, and in a way that can be proven or disproven in court.

who are trans but haven't "undergone a process"

Define "trans" and "undergone a process" so that it covers everyone that this law will cover, and in a way that can be proven or disproven in court.

This doesn't create any conflict with the Equality Act because protecting these people from conversion therapy doesn't have any impact on how service providers and employers operate, which is what the Equality Act governs.

I think you might be incorrect here, but perhaps some legal bods can give us the Actual Answer.

I'm going to leave this here so others can have a think, and perhaps come up with some grownup answers.

You don't need to respond unless you want to. I won't be corresponding with you about this again. It's a waste of my time.

ed. sp.

One thing that struck me is that the wording for sexual orientation protects one's sexual orientation per se from conversion, ie a gay orientation is not specified. So attempting to coercively persuade anybody about their sexual orientation is out.

But when it comes to gender, there is protection against coercive persuasion not to be trans, but no protection against coercive persuasion to be trans. Leaving a clear field for indoctrination and emotional pressure in the latter direction.

In other words, the right to one's gender identity ( or to an absence thereof) is only protected from conversion if one identifies as transgender. That's not equality. That's privilege.