Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

HH T and NB being seen by others as they see themselves.

Unfortunately the impossible is not always possible.

Such is life.

Have they ever asked women how they feel or commissioned a survey about that thing, what's it called again SEX BASED RIGHTS?

HH: being seen by others as they see themselves.

You cannot control how other people see you.

When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

J Come back to it otherwise
asking q with nothing to refer to

Why has it taken the judge this long to notice?

HH were you member of CIPD when at work
CA Do

That was a 'no'. I think that one of the reasons CA takes the position she does is that she wasn't swallowing the CIPD crap.

Did the judge really tell HH to "stop asking questions with nothing to refer to?"

And handbags

Will wonders never cease!

<goes off to get collection of Crocs handbags>

Kidding! I can't be arsed going upstairs.

Staff surveys have notoriously low submission rates anyway, and those without an axe to grind at the time are even less likely to complete them.

Just had a look at NC's intervener note and was surprised to find in para 12 that in 2023 CA wrote to EW that using the term "biological male" was "hurtful", and "biological reality" "unneccesarily inflammatory".

Maybe speaks to the way things have shifted in the last 3 years, when even CA back then was trying to tell EW to censor herself in order not to offend the T people...

(I may have just poured cold water on the newly emerging CA fanclub, sorry bout that)

HH: This most marginalised group ..........

Oh bother. Sigh.

Placemarking so I can find my spot. MN is even more slow than the last thread. I think I have HHs laptop.

Not surprised it dropped. Forstater, tribunal wins, Isla Blair etc. They could see the law was being reasserted and they felt like they were losing.

I went and plotted a bit of Book II of The Gosie Chronicles about an itinerant gerbil, for a bit rather than wade through this stuff. Book I is here. It gets adventurous around chapter 19 or so. But they are very short chapters.

https://myrtlelion.substack.com/p/the-gosie-chronicles-book-1

.

From TT:

HH And less likely to report B&H
CA CS survey seems to bear that out.
HH As a senior leader in EDI you have role to play re inclusion at work for this most marginalised group
CA Yes we have role to play in inclusion and in increasing confidence.
HH Back to CIPD survey

HH Would you agree with what written here in terms of recommended approach for professionals re LGBT people - re barriers to inclusion and creating safe spaces.
CA Yes
HH Going on to another topic
J How long?
HH Fifteen minutes?
J Might benefit from starting again in morning

J Need to talk c timing. Is this witness giving evidence all tomorrow.
[it appears so]
J We may get into position of hearing evidence from all witnesses except EW

<Yet more waiting for Elspeth... >

AL CA may go into Friday. May get through one of those two
J They will be shorter
AL Concern c going part heard on one of them
J We're aware and won't run that risk.
J Can you talk about it between yourselves. Will have to find new dates for everybody - a challenge.

[all agree]
J Back tomorrow. [Reminds witness not to talk to anyone during evidence. ] Thank you.

Possibly but most of us here must have peaked at some point.

I am just impressed that she has the (metaphorical) balls to take the opportunities handed to her to say that she doesn't think she has seen any bigotry from SEEN so clearly on record.

Interesting that it was "TW"s and not "TM"s reporting increased B&H.

Brings to mind:

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Judge now talking about having to find an additional date to hear evidence from EW. Not good!

Is HH assuming all LGBT people are trans?

Numerous reasons, including erasure of same-sex attraction, for bullying and harassment, not just the women are being mean to the men who want to be them.

HH T and NB being seen by others as they see themselves.

From the writer who brought you
'A man's a man for a' that':

'O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.'

HH was really fumbling there...but the judge gave her a lot of time amd space in which to do it.

The good thing is that we'll hear more from CA tomorrow.

I could see this coming as HH really dragged out the cross exam of NB.