Camilla Tominey: Do you think a woman can have a penis?; James Murray (Health Secretary): No, I don't.

[GallantKumquat]

Apologies if this was already posted.

From a wide ranging interview, including a less than great response on the puberty blocker trial.

Camilla Tominey: Do you think a woman can have a penis? Because you did previously. It's an important question for a health secretary to answer.

James Murray: No, I don't.

Camilla Tominey: So, you've changed your mind.

James Murray: Yes.

Camilla Tominey: Why have you changed your mind?

James Murray: Well, I think a lot of us have been thinking about this issue over recent years. Um, and you know, I wouldn't now say that, for instance, trans women are women. I think that biological sex is important.

Camilla Tominey: You must have known that before. You're very well educated. You went to St. Paul's private school. I was reading this morning. How on earth could you have previously thought that a woman could have a penis?

James Murray: Well, I think this is an issue that a lot of us have thought about in recent years. And I think there's a difference between uh sex and gender, I think that when it comes to sex and biology is what matters. And that's why

Camilla Tominey: Do you owe women who called for uh who were gender critical and then were canceled an apology.

James Murray: Look, I don't think people should be cancelled. I think people should be allowed to have their views.

Camilla Tominey: Part of the reason these women were cancelled is because people like you denied biological sex and then they were hounded on by the trans lobby and now you've changed your mind.

Well, thankfully because they took it to the Supreme Court.

James Murray: Well, look, I hope people would see that I've always been respectful of different views on this topic as with others. I think my the way I approach things when people have different views um is to be respectful and to listen to people's views on this. And on this issue in particular, I listen to people. I listen to constituents of mine. Um, I've listened who have different opinions, by the way. Quite a range of opinions. Um, I've listened to other people in politics. I've listened to other people working in uh public services, in policy, and so on. And yes, my my position now is different than it was a few years ago. But I think it's right that as politicians, you know, if we think things through and we come to a different position, we say that, make that clear.

So basically noone ever believed it but "be kind" wah wah wah.

No one did ever believe it. You could never convince me otherwise.

“I’ve changed my mind because it’s politically expedient.”

He could see which way the wind was blowing then, and now, like a weathercock, he is turning with the wind.

Thank you for putting the transcript. And politicians are weak on this. They were fine to hound women before.

Yay Camilla! I just wish she'd repeated the questions over and over, like Paxman, until he answered or burst into tears. Either would have been fine.

At least he can go back from this. He can't flip flop again.

That's a marvellous, if also infuriating, read. Well done Camilla.

Thanks OP. Great to see it set out like that.

With the caveat that I haven’t followed him much, or watched the video here but isn’t this what we hope people will do?

He started off all TWAW (and yes, should have thought about how this impacts women from the start) but then listened, changed his mind and it sounds like he now speaks fairly clearly that TWANW.

I know it’s likely based on political expediency and, yes, an apology would be gratifying, but Golden Bridge and all that, however bloody hard that is.

Edited to add - thanks for the transcript btw. Camilla’s questions are good.

Golden Bridge, yes.

It’s great that he’s saying this now. When people come over to our side, we need to welcome them & keep them - not push them away again.

However difficult & frustrating it is on occasion.

Her questions are spot on

I'm all for people coming to that logical conclusion late. I'd much rather they did that than feel trapped and dig in with their previous stance.

God, you'd think this was a Philomena Cunk interview if you didn't see the footage.

Sorry, did I say that out loud.

Well done, minister.

And well done Camilla Tominey.

Who's next.

I am happy for every minister to be presented with this question tbh. And I won't insult them even when they look like absolute vacant-eyed twits having to sheepishly assert basic reality.

I build the best golden bridges, me.

I agree but I like the angle of her questions – there does need to be some recognition on the part of those who went along with this of the harm their views did, to women and to children. I’d far rather they were onside than not and am glad/ relieved they’re talking common sense now, but a huge amount of damage was done due to their prioritisation of men with fetishes and an acknowledgement of that, however small, is important.

Totally agree with all of this. Camilla's questions are good, but his answers are good too:

James Murray: Well, I think this is an issue that a lot of us have thought about in recent years. And I think there's a difference between uh sex and gender, I think that when it comes to sex and biology is what matters.

Sounds sensible to me. He was hardly in a minority in his initial opinion- I don't particularly see why he should be singled out for grovelling.

Golden Bridges all round.

Yes. His last para is reasonable.

...on this issue in particular, I listen to people. I listen to constituents of mine. Um, I've listened who have different opinions, by the way. Quite a range of opinions. Um, I've listened to other people in politics. I've listened to other people working in uh public services, in policy, and so on. And yes, my my position now is different than it was a few years ago. But I think it's right that as politicians, you know, if we think things through and we come to a different position, we say that, make that clear.

Good. Now stop the puberty blocker trial.

The problem is that TWAW was party policy, then it wasn't. So he said TWAW, now he is saying that they are not.

At no time has he thought critically about the policy and been willing to speak his mind. He's not crossed a golden bridge, he's just a nodding through policy someone else has decided. How can he make informed decisions with that attitude?

He should have used the opportunity to explain why it was wrong, what have been the consequences and what he is going to do to change it.

“What about lady boys? Because my mate Paul went on holiday to Thailand last year and had a bad pill, but he swears blind they were proper ladies and you couldn’t tell, even when he saw their penises. So is Paul wrong?”

Yes and it’s only party policy due to the fantastic FWS and their SC ruling.

None of these people would arrive here without it. Tg for them. And the next part should be the puberty blocker trial is stopped.

This is the man who met NHSE colleagues for the first time and whittered on about his favourite film (Clueless).

Exactly. While it’s good that he is saying this now, I have absolutely no trust that he is committed to it, that he truly understands or cares about it.

Well done Camilla

Anytime a politician starts off by saying "look…" you know they’re feeling defensive and a bit annoyed about being asked something. Yes, it’s good he’s ’changed’ his mind (or is no longer lying) but he could be more sheepish or apologetic about throwing women under the bus.

I’d like to see Camilla put the same question to Lisa Nandy.