Camilla Tominey: Do you think a woman can have a penis?; James Murray (Health Secretary): No, I don't.

[GallantKumquat]

Apologies if this was already posted.

From a wide ranging interview, including a less than great response on the puberty blocker trial.

Camilla Tominey: Do you think a woman can have a penis? Because you did previously. It's an important question for a health secretary to answer.

James Murray: No, I don't.

Camilla Tominey: So, you've changed your mind.

James Murray: Yes.

Camilla Tominey: Why have you changed your mind?

James Murray: Well, I think a lot of us have been thinking about this issue over recent years. Um, and you know, I wouldn't now say that, for instance, trans women are women. I think that biological sex is important.

Camilla Tominey: You must have known that before. You're very well educated. You went to St. Paul's private school. I was reading this morning. How on earth could you have previously thought that a woman could have a penis?

James Murray: Well, I think this is an issue that a lot of us have thought about in recent years. And I think there's a difference between uh sex and gender, I think that when it comes to sex and biology is what matters. And that's why

Camilla Tominey: Do you owe women who called for uh who were gender critical and then were canceled an apology.

James Murray: Look, I don't think people should be cancelled. I think people should be allowed to have their views.

Camilla Tominey: Part of the reason these women were cancelled is because people like you denied biological sex and then they were hounded on by the trans lobby and now you've changed your mind.

Well, thankfully because they took it to the Supreme Court.

James Murray: Well, look, I hope people would see that I've always been respectful of different views on this topic as with others. I think my the way I approach things when people have different views um is to be respectful and to listen to people's views on this. And on this issue in particular, I listen to people. I listen to constituents of mine. Um, I've listened who have different opinions, by the way. Quite a range of opinions. Um, I've listened to other people in politics. I've listened to other people working in uh public services, in policy, and so on. And yes, my my position now is different than it was a few years ago. But I think it's right that as politicians, you know, if we think things through and we come to a different position, we say that, make that clear.

So he had to listen to other people in order to decide that a woman doesn’t have a penis? Weak minded fool.

No golden bridge unless he cancels the puberty blocker trial. It’s all placating words under pressure. He would say something different to a trans activist. He’s got the backbone of a sock puppet.

If people want to back pedal on this topic then I don’t mind. It’s a form of transportation that I can get on board with…

Better late than never!

I'm also in the 'watch the ferret reversing by back-pedalling over a newly-constructed golden bridge' camp.

It's infuriating to us to hear a politician wriggling around like that instead of just following scientific fact about sex from the beginning.

But I think it probably has a different significance to the average person who hasn't been following the debate closely, and has been vaguely #bekind - it may be significant for them to hear a politician saying out loud and in public
'I used to believe TWAW but now I've given it more thought, I've changed my mind'.

I accept all the criticism of sneaky flip-flopping politicians and their weasel words [so weasels and ferrets] but I'm pragmatic enough to take little 'wins' when they happen, and I think this is one.

Also, when a sneaky flip-flopping politician crosses the golden bridge, I wouldn't suggest brass bands and fireworks, but I do think that a muted positive response is more productive than a 'why were you so f*king stupid before?' because it might encourage more sneaky flip-flopping politicians to cross over, when they perceive a positive public reaction.

They are going to get lots of grief from TRAs for abandoning them to their 'literal annihilation', so if they are going to get grief from the GC side as well, politicians might just hunker down in an endless round of 'complicated...balance of rights.... toxic... light/heat...complicated....complicated...complicated...'

Weasel alert!

The truth is he has realised where the votes lie.

So

Women 50% of the electorate.

Men with brains most of the rest of the other 50%.

Trans allies, plus misogynists, the hard of thinking, whatever % is left.

But would he have been quite so forthcoming if he hadn’t been pushed by a determined and persistent interviewer? I haven’t noticed many of the previously misinformed taking out full page adverts to explain their wrong think, or even standing up on their back legs at constituency meetings to apologise for the harm they have done. Many will hope that other issues will take precedence so when it comes to an election they can quietly push their anti GC views into a suitcase that they can hide in the attic with their other unfortunate blunders.

Yes, this!
am also all for casting as many golden bridges as needed but I have to say Nandys would be gold plated at best.

Confession time:

I was a be kind, TWAW, go with flow, I don’t really understand this but the policy says if someone objects to a trans person in the changing room then it’s the objector who needs to move cos the policy matches policy across the country (and I went looking for other sectors policies because it didn’t feel right and I wanted to be sure I was giving appropriate advice) person up until about 4 years ago.

In order to try and rationalise to myself the various policies I was reading (written by people who I foolishly thought must really know their stuff and were much cleverer that I was) I concluded that the human body was so complicated that’s it’s just possible that someone could have a brain that didn’t match their body. But I also thought that sport and prisons and hospital wards should be an exception and I thought most people thought those should be exceptions to TWAW.

I didn’t actually believe that TWAW but I foolishly thought that being kind was more important than any brooding doubts I had in the logical part of my brain. I was also ridiculously stressed and busy because of work so whenever I had downtime I wanted to completely relax so list myself in music and foreign language dramas where I had to focus to read the subtitles so wasn’t giving my brain time to think about difficult stuff.

I saw some stuff on FB and scrolled on by and I read the occasional thread on FWR if it appeared on trending but it all appeared a bit shouty.

Then I saw that there were people who literally thought men could change their biological sex, and that men were entitled to play in women’s sport…and then the straw that broke the camel’s back for me was reading about the story Baroness Nicholson used in the HoL about the woman raped in a hospital ward and how the staff gaslit her and obstructed the police by denying the presence of a man on the ward. For me that coincided with seeing a lot about the Tavistock clinic and hearing an interview with Hannah Barnes. And then of course came the fragrant Isla Bryson…..

TL:DR. I was a be kind person who felt sorry for people who felt different and who forgot about the rights of the rest of the human race.

I am sure this particular politician didn’t give this issue much thought previously and I don’t know his motivations; I suspect he didn’t give it much thought as there was #no debate, but if he is publicly prepared to take a TWANW line then I will see that as progress.

I am sure this particular politician didn’t give this issue much thought previously and I don’t know his motivations; I suspect he didn’t give it much thought as there was #no debate, but if he is publicly prepared to take a TWANW line then I will see that as progress.

It's not good enough. If people are going to put themselves into positions of authority and make laws, they shouldn't be unthinking.

We really need much better politicians and people in authority.

You will never guess!

There is a Reddit thread on this, and mild annoyance at the minister quickly changes to calling the interviewer a shitstain and attacking her.

I think it depends on how much harm they've done and whether they are able and prepared to facilitate reparation.

Just saying "my bad, I was wrong, please don't cancel me" isn't enough. And some of them, can get in the sea.

While it’s good that this is an indication of the tide turning (it would appear), there has been significant damage done by politicians on this issue. Helping give traction to tras on their ugly fairy tale agenda which everyone knows has no basis in reality. The damage is still too deep rooted.

I think we nearly all were - I was anyway, and I'm now full of admiration for the women who stood up years ago (Germaine Greer was saying it iback in 1999, and some women were saying it even before that (the Michigan Womyn's festival banned trans women in 1991, to widespread vilification):

But that's not the same thing as politicians who actually read propOsed laws and voted on them - their actual job is/was to think these things through, not just to do as so many of us began by doing and assuming that all those other people probably knew more about it than we did. Because it's their job and we were busy with our own lives - but what's their excuse??

So no. Politicians like James Murray or Lisa Nandy didn't do their jobs properly when they just accepted this without engaging their brains. I forgive myself, you and even, to some extent, the women I know who still don't get it: they don't get it because of people like James Murray and Lisa Nandy.

ETA: that said, we do need to give people a "way back"/golden bridge etc. But I'm not going to be pathetically grateful for someone who barely acknowledges the harm done. As others have said, they need to show that they're actually doing something to fix their mistakes. For Murray, the Puberty blocker trial is a minimum.

I was wondering if he'd be any less combative towards Camilla in this interview because he was appalling snide to Julia Hartley-Brewer when they discussed this subject. He was less openly rude to Camilla but that vibe of, 'bloody woman asking me questions' was still noticeable. It might or might not be the topic, but it also might be that he's one of those men who doesn't like being interrogated by women 🤔

Oh yes!!! And many others.

Great interview. I used to listen to Camilla on LBC, though I’m naturally to the left, I enjoyed her show and style. Also I agree we should - dare I say - “be kind” to those who change their views.

I use to watch GBnews every day, but i got fed up with hearing the same things,
pedos, perverts, racisms, imagration, government, over and over.
Id cringe at some of the things they would say.

I stopped watching it.

Pity we don't hear those questions asked on BBC. For all its faults GB News should have some credit.

I really wish one of these politicians would be brave enough to answer, 'I never believed it but I was afraid to say so.'
Just one. It would make such a difference I think.

But equally, if we're going to win this, we need the more cowardly politicians to have a change of heart too, especially if they're in a ministerial role. So welcome, James Murray.

Today in parliament

https://x.com/i/status/2074799236323909843

https://x.com/i/status/2074808578150408280

This would be so powerful it really would.

Anyone who genuinely thought for one millisecond that a woman could have a penis is mind-boggingly stupid and you know what - a lot of them are in government making decisions that seriously affect the daily lives of every one of us.

Yet they are being praised by some for their road to Damascus conversion.

Of course they never really thought that, so not stupid, just cowardly hypocrites.

As an oldie I am (still) in despair.

I always remember this comedy sketch when I think of idiot ministers/shadow ministers:

https://nitter.net/JamesAHogg2/status/2074423822564892906

I would love all MPs to be publicly asked the question.

But it's what they do not what they say.

I have very little respect for any of the idiots who could say out loud that women can have a penis.