Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 5

[fanOfBen]

Previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549488-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-4

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.
I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

J - we have concluded C case, move on to R

And what a dog's dinner the C's case is.

No-one has yet asked how the claimant got her hands on the complaint spreadsheet. I imagine the respondents witnesses will be getting some interesting questions.

Sending someone minutes of a meeting would not necessarily be horrific - but it sounds like it was a lot more than that.

She wouldn't want to remember if she spoke to ST last Sunday as ST was still giving evidence so shouldn't have been speaking to anyone about the case over the weekend

From the previous thread:

@Cailin66 How did you make them? They look professionally made. I have one I bought from For Women Scotland, in the feminist colours, with a Coke Terf bottle I bought from Posie Parker, the laynard says : Woman Adult Human Female. Been wearing them in at Woke work for nearly 3 years ........

@MariedeGournay They are indeed lovely, but I think they only exist on screen, Cailin66, Unless MyrtleLion goes into business to make them and sell them, which would be great😃

As Marie said, they only exist on screen and are AI generated. I was in the middle of creating an online store to make merchandise print on demand during one of the Tribunals earlier. I was doing a lot of c&ping and generating t-shirt images. Unfortunately it became too much for me to c&p for various personal reasons so I stepped back.

It will take a few days but I can complete the online store. I am trying to find a way to anonymise my identity if people buy things, which includes setting up a business bank account to pay me funds. This hasn’t been as easy as I hoped. But I don’t want people to buy from MyrtleLion and then realise their payment has gone to Julie Smith (that is not my name).

If there is demand, I will set it up, but you’ll need to let me know.

Genuinely, LOL to "nobody knows they exist".
ED: aG is best kept secret in the Civil Service, nobody knows we exist,

From TT:

HH - questions on behalf of C. These q relates to number 4, the R conduct and failure to uphold 2nd appeal and related to that the first appeal. These are where my q will focus. You were employed as a director at defra in water del dept, and appointed as appeal mgr for

.. 2nd appeal. Page 1433 of bundle. We can see at 1433, email Mr Moore to C, attaching the letter outcome of 3 April. Just want to ask first general q about where you are in org. You and Mr Moore were at same level
DH yes we were

Where are you in relation to NB
DH diff part of heir - NB is also director same level as me
HH - any dealing with NB in particular
DH our paths crossed from time to time - I would come across her
NC - couldn't hear

J - please speak to room and mic
HH how often would you come into contact with her?
J - answer to last question confirmed HR director, met on HR matters. NB members of leadership group and perm sec has a morning meeting on Mondays and we would both be on that.

DH giving evidence. Can someone tell me who that is and who they work for? I can't find the list of abbreviations.

J - the last q is you said that you sent the letter as it was 3rd time you had to address messages from Mr Meuller
ED no more than him, identities I managed to uncover
J - you had to uncover? you didn't know?

"Identities I managed to uncover"

Excellent snooping skills there. No wonder it needed to be a full time paid (band 7?) role.

I have a feeling that anyone attending a Teams meeting can get that info too. Or it may just be the meeting Organiser. It may have been a f2f meeting so my ruminations wont apply ?

Never mind I've caught up now!

I was wondering too - I see from TT
You were employed as a director at defra in water del dept, and appointed as appeal mgr for the 2nd appeal.

From TT:

HH - on that note, you say in para 5 of WS, prior to your invovement you were awareness of background of C
DH - not at all
HH you say you were aware of general tensions of diff between trans and GC, do you mean in defra or more widely
DH - more widely
HH - Your Monday

HH updates given on HR matters?
DH - one of slots is for hot topics, HR the HR rep would brief for eg on issues relating to defra in general most recently on civil service pensions
HH - this was a hot topic, leading to this grievance

HH - you had Monday meetings every week, every week in 2022 and 23?
DH yes
HH the tensions between trans comm and GC became a hot topic in mid 2022?
DH not to my knowledge, no

HH - going to suggest that this was one of the most contentious matters facing Defra at this time and it was inconc that it wasn't mentioned
DH can't deny it wasn't mentioned but can't remember being engaged or aware of

I’d buy

HH - going to suggest that this was one of the most contentious matters facing Defra at this time and it was inconc that it wasn't mentioned

or maybe most of DEFRA were just getting on with DEFRA-ing?

I think it’s David Hallam. Definitely someone Hallam.

From TT:

HH - you say you can't deny it wasn't mentioned, so was it mentioned?
DH no I am not at every meeting, I can't say if it was or it wasn't

HH - you are a director, a snr mgr, you had quite extensive experience of grev procedures
DH limited experience
there is one other case where I was a decision mgr not appeal mgr

HH - you haven't had any experience of appeals process
DH - I have been a civil servant for more than 30 years but can't be more specific
HH - not something you did regularly
DH no

HH - recent training on EQ
DH - every year a training unit on values, importance of behaviours we uphold for communities we serve and employees
HH - does it take form of in person or is it Teams?

DH - self directed#
J - online
DH exactly
HH any specific training on gender reass harrassment>?
DH no i have not

HH - the circs around this claim- quite complicated?
DH - yes balance between rights and duties defra trying to navigate

https://civilservice.blog.gov.uk/author/david-hallam/

Ah. Right. I've been reading the second H in HH as 'Hallam'. Which was wrong. I'm not following the dramatis personae very well today!

This is outrageous, isn't it?

The analogy is quite good if we're talking about gender, as opposed to sex, because northernness or southernness don't really matter (however much we like to pretend they do). It's similar with gender – how feminine or masculine someone is doesn't really matter, it's just an aspect, or set of aspects, of their personality.

Does anybody in these organisations have time to work? They all seem to be so busy monitoring people…

I think she is Helen Hogben

https://helenhogben.com/

Thank you for the new thread! I had intended to check in between meetings but the first one overran.

It seems ED finished as she started. I see NC tried to do her usual thing of starting with a few yes/no questions to set the scene and ED couldn't even manage that without speechifying.

I do wonder whether ED and ST are "plateaued" in their career because of a general inability to listen to what someone else is saying, regardless of topic. Certainly supported by hearing the words "I hold GC beliefs" and understanding "I want you to cease existence"

So as a bloke until he was forced to pay attention to all the trans v the world stuff it just went over the top of his head as it did not impact on him in any way.

We have a grown up witness