Are attitudes finally shifting in discussions about women, sex and gender?

[porridgecake]

Over the last couple of days many, many people (men) in positions of authority seem to have had a lightbulb moment around the systemic and organised abuse of women and girls. They are suddenly talking about women and girls being the targets and victims and the perpetrators being men. Using the words correctly.
Andrew Marr has had a couple of excellent guests on his LBC show this evening.
Is anyone else listening to it all and thinking "what took you so long?" Followed almost immediately by "why do men who pretend to be women get a free pass?"
The parallels between tiptoeing round the Pakistani rape gangs and other "groups " of men are very obvious.
Then we have the scandal of the appalling treatment of pregnant women in the NHS. Now suddenly referred to as "women", not "pregnant people".
Violence against women and girls. Actually saying the words.
Does anyone think the penny might continue to drop?

Of course it feels like a slow process but its not really the SC FWS ruling and a few more besides are pushing the iceberg ever faster.

There are definite signs the tide has turned.

The Supreme Court ruling was a pivotal moment and I thank the people who put up the money and the ones that put their heart and soul into fighting that case in court from the bottom of my heart.

The other really influential thing was the horrific death of Sarah Everard, closely followed by the conviction of another police serial sex offender David Carrick. Showing that women weren't even safe against the men who were being paid to protect them.

It's about time.

I think it's changing for the better. I think more people are exposed to what TRA's are and what they want. And the more this happens the more they realise how toxic the movement is. There are still people out there who think the average trans person is a gay effeminate man who doesn't fit in and they feel sorry for him. The more they find out about young girls falling into this and creepy pervy men the more they are against this.

I recently went on to Magdalen Berns' youtube channel and watched some of her videos from around 9 years ago. Some of the clips she had in them from mainstream media I can't see them happening now.

I think unfortunately though there are still issues in Canada and Australia. Also with the USA is so partisan. When the democrats get back in as part of being the opposing side I bet they reverse some sensible decisions (I detest Trump but he's right on this issue).

Then we have the scandal of the appalling treatment of pregnant women in the NHS. Now suddenly referred to as "women", not "pregnant people".

The Amos Review, published this week, talks about "women and birthing people" throughout, unfortunately.

That is disappointing. I listened to Donna Ockington and I was pleased to hear women and pregnant women named consistently. The other thing she said was that women are not listened to - which is a recurring theme that resonated with me.
It is my understanding that Donna Ockington is not in total agreement with Baroness Amos' report.

Sorry. Donna Ockenden.

Yes things are so much better. I remember when Mumsnet was one of the only places we could speak about GI online and even then through heavily moderated code (Malaga Airport anyone?).

I do think part of the reason that Samantha Tempest sounds like such a loon in his current case against DEFRA is that he is saying things DEFRA would immediately have complied with in 2019, but he’s saying them in 2026 and the climate has changed.

It’s nowhere near over. So many Labour MPs decided to go with the puberty blockers trial and sterilise even more vulnerable, gay, lesbian and autistic children rather than looking at the data on the thousands of children they already have, but it is getting better.

Feels like 2 steps forward and 1 step back but certainly better than just a few years ago when there seemed no stopping the removal of women's rights. There are still too many happy to disregard women and children's safety and protection.

The SCOTUS judgement on women's sports feels like a big step forward across the pond also.

What's notable for me is that none of the arguments against it feel like they have any weight anymore. It's all blustering. Boys can compete with boys, there is zero need for them to be in girls sports.

It is a step by step process...with some way yet to go. But at least being able to talk a little more freeely helps a lot.

Once obvious practical solutions can be discussed then the bluster loses even more of its emotional weight.

So, for example - most big organisations just have to provide one new 'gender neutral' facility for changing and/or toilet provison. No -one need be 'excluded' or not have their needs met.

And another : There can be an 'open' category in sports for those that don't want to compete in their sex based category - nobody needs to feel 'excluded' from sport.

And so on.......

All that the TRAs are left with then is the demand for ideological obedience ( TWAW & TMAM); and they have pretty much lost control of that narrative now.

The whole puberty blocker business along with the concept of 'gender identnty' and 'trans children' is perhaps the next main hurdle, and big issue, to be navigated.

Some days I feel more optimistic than others.

I do feel that we have had a number of wins on several fronts recently (SC ruling; the new PSHE guidance for September, which I think is looking positive although I know very little about it and what it should look like; a few high-profile tribunals that are raising awareness and which look likely to win on appeal; a few BBC articles/programmes which would never have been allowed to happen even two years ago; the publicity of the NHS audit; occasional forward-looking political or news items from the US; anecdotal evidence that gender woo is not taking hold as much in schools now).

But the puberty blocker trial going ahead (so far) and Andy Burnham's likely crowning soon worry me, as does the underlying misogyny in society, which is driving most of this and is not likely to ever disappear. And the EU seems like a gender nightmare to me; I was ambivalent about Brexit, would rather we had stayed in the EU, probably, but, from a female perspective, it seems to me that it's lucky that people vote to leave.

As mrshoho says, two steps forward and one step back.

I would like to see a major shift in the way the NHS treats women as a whole, and that's where I'm expecting my personal fight to be in future. But, having said that, I'm better off here than in the US right now, and I won't ever be going back unless forced to. Not if you paid me. I'll stay here and fight for my rights.

Mmmm I don’t know. Still getting push back from entrenched LGBTQ+ brainwashed MPs. Still getting lots of public sector emails with the dumbAF pronouns. Still get the sense ‘identifying as…’ gets treated with far more delicacy than the dignity of women. Still far too many thickies who don’t get it and think it’s just an older right wing worldview. Still too many western democracies where it’s become law and will be hard to roll back.

I do sense a shift, yes, but I still think there is a long way to go. Sorry.

Yes, and the Conversion Practices bill is disheartening especially given the amount of grooming for transing of young children being carried out by adults in schools and children’s books.

I think it's getting better rather than worse.

BUT, really important institutions such as the NHS and councils/civil service departments are still led by people who are activists and who are still pushing their activist agenda - the fact that this is not what they are paid for appears to have escaped them.

We need to government to push this crap out of public services, but I don't see this happening at the moment.

I think the royal family publishing a photo of Queen Camilla and JKR was a watershed moment. Not least because the crazy TRA comments below the post on instagram are visible to a wider audience than usual . A lot of bleating that it was inappropriate in Pride Month.

It feels like we’ve reached a Pandora’s Box moment, where all the absolute batshittery is now very much out there in the open, on the ground regular people are noticing, and there’s no chance of stuffing it all back in again. The sea change is very noticeable on social media, outside TRA bubbles the new backlash is evident, and as court case after court case goes against them encountering a particularly ridiculous ‘we will win eventually and then you’ll all SUFFER!’ TRA in the wild is starting to feel like the Black Knight scene from Monty Python’s Holy Grail.
There’s definitely a momentum building.

There’s definitely a momentum building.

Yes, I think on my good days, I would describe it like this. But fragile, still fragile, I think.

I'm very hopeful about this. I've seen some logical sounding suggestions that the law as proposed will enable parents to sue people for attempting to persuade their children that they are trans, especially if the youngsters are gay.

I’m not so sure now. The activists are still there but the grown ups are back in the room as they watch tribunals stacking up. Things are changing in organisations and whilst the tra’s are furious, the law is not on their side.

This all has some way to run. Our public and civil service are out of step with public opinion. I really don't think it's all of them. It seems to be at a management level (I might be wrong). Given that this is a kind of indoctrination, it will take some time for realism to grab hold of all policy. This means we will have to be on our guard and still actively searching for issues.

Moat MP's and some political parties are getting it. They've had to step back from their ideology but that's not to say they're not thinking of the day when they can spring it on us again! Watch how they have gone quiet. Not the same thing as a mind change

It's not just Ockenden who thinks the Amos report is flawed. Kirkup who investigated Morecambe resigned over it. The Birth Trauma Association aren't best pleased with it. Amongst others

"The Amos review is out and it could not be clearer. There is no evidence that 'normal birth ideology' exists in any definable way or that it dominates maternity care in England".

This is such utter utter bullshit that doesn't reflect reality. And it has so many echoes of the institutional mupperty that says there's no evidence of a problem with gender ideology.

They don't want to see it. They are using measures that don't reflect what women are experiencing and don't make official complaints about. It's this gap between recording information in a formal way and the actual experiences of women.

Until there is official recognition of this gap and how we go about addressing it, we are going to continue to have shed loads of institutional level issues regarding women in various ways.

Tanya de Grunwald (of “This Isn’t Working” podcast) had an interview on the “You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist” podcast recently. Tanya basically says that big businesses are discovering that trans policies - and DEI and “bring your whole self to work” more generally - have been really bad for business. She says there’s a a big appetite for change in this particular area. So I’d say she sees a sea change, at least in the private sector. Some parts are moving less than others - she gives the example of publishing, which is a quite upper-middle class and insular field. Public sector, including NHS, universities, schools, CS, are going to be a lot longer to change, as they aren’t worried about their bottom lines. Charities, she said, are in the worst position in terms of how embedded these policies are.

Roughly agree with this.

I dont known that the issue will ever competely be resolved either way.

But if we can reassert material reality in institutions we've done what matters most.