Oxford comma dilemma

[HotCrossBunplease]

I have started working on a new project and have a colleague whose job it is to manage internal communications. She is lovely and very experienced.

I am the “figurehead” of the project in that all internal messaging says to contact me, and I am responsible for setting the overall tone and content, so I write a first draft and then pass to her for comments.

She has just come back with suggested amendments to our first big announcement and she has sprinkled Oxford commas all over the place. I can’t stand them. Two instances are new lists that she has added, based on wording that I had used in a different sentence structure. A third is a list that was in my original draft, to which she has just added the OC. As you can imagine, the third one rankles the most!

I really want to point out that my original was not wrong and that OCs are a matter of personal style. I could pull rank and make her remove them but that would make me an arsehole and set our working relationship off on the wrong foot. My sentence was this:

“Training will be provided in English, French and Portuguese.”

which has now become

“..English, French, and Portuguese”

The ones she has added are:

“Their enthusiasm, insights, and feedback have been invaluable”

and

“considering the broader impact of [project] on our clients, our practice, and the way we do business.”

I know that OCs are not wrong. I also know that not a single reader will care (apart from one friend of mine in the company who knows about my visceral objection to OCs and will find it hilarious).

Not sure what I even want from this post. A bit of solidarity maybe?

Yes, because in the second example it is an Oxford comma.

“Fleetwood Mac, Simon and Garfunkel* and The Carpenters” isn't clear; if you'd never heard of Simon and Garfunkel, you might not know they're a duo.
Adding the comma adds clarity, “Fleetwood Mac, Simon and Garfunkel, *and The Carpenters”

If you are adhering to 'You mustn't use Oxford commas', it's fine. (It's also fine if your style guide says 'You must use Oxford commas' and I think this is what's confusing you.)

“Fleetwood Mac, Queen, and The Carpenters” has an Oxford comma.

“Simon and Garfunkel, Fleetwood Mac and The Carpenters” doesn't have one.
I usually list items in alphabetical order.

Basically, an Oxford comma is comma that comes before the word and or or in a list of 3 or more items.
e.g.
'My list is A, B, and C.'
'The options are A, B, or C'

If you are not using Oxford commas the examples would be:
'My list is A, B and C.'
'The options are A, B or C'

A comma might be needed if one of the variables consists of two things.
e.g.
A= grapefruit
B = lemon and lime
C = orange
In 'The options are grapefruit, lemon and lime or orange' it's not clear if the options are grapefruit, lemon and either lime or orange, so you'd add the comma.

Yes, because in the second example it is an Oxford comma.

The first example, “Fleetwood Mac, Simon and Garfunkel, and The Carpenters” also has an Oxford comma.

You saying otherwise is the only thing that’s confusing me @PleasantPedant.

@Terracottateapot , strictly speaking, it isn't one. If you want it to be one then that's fine.
If you used it like in the example and your work came to me to be edited, it would match 'You mustn't use Oxford commas' and 'You must use Oxford commas'.

My major reason for using the Oxford comma is that someone might not know that "Queen and the Carpenters" is not the name of a band. Likewise, they might not know that "Sam and the Womp" is the name of a band.

Adding the serial comma ensures that, no matter the order of list items, there's no risk of the reader misinterpreting the last two list items as being one item. In the case that Peter, Paul, and Mary are in your record collection, it's time to wrap the names in quote marks, use semicolons, or use bullets.

"Jane's record collection includes Scooter, the Prodigy, and Sam and the Womp. Dave's record collection includes Simon and Garfunkel; Bob Dylan; and Peter, Paul, and Mary. Jane and Dave have difficulty agreeing on a playlist when car sharing."

Without the extra comma, it could be "the Prodigy and Sam" and "the Womp", and people who've not heard of those two bands will have no way of knowing.

The trio's name was "Peter, Paul and Mary".

You are still in semicolon territory.

The guidance these days tends to be that you use it if it aids understanding, otherwise it is unnecessary. I say this as a well-seasoned comms professional of 20+ years. Although you do seem to be taking it a tiny bit personally@HotCrossBunplease?! She’s not saying you’re wrong, she’s probably used to a different type of style. That’s all it is, isn’t it? I have issues with how people use ‘text’ when they mean ‘texted’ and ‘mash potato’ when it’s ’mashed potato’ but I just keep those to myself.

I love the clarity they bring.

If you want it to be one then that’s fine.

Seriously! 😂
If you say ‘strictly speaking, it isn’t one,’ then you need to explain why.
You haven’t done that.

It is one imho @PleasantPedant.

‘An Oxford comma is the final comma placed before a coordinating conjunction (usually "and", "or", or "nor") in a list of three or more items…’

It’s a list of items or elements that’s required. These items are not necessarily single words.
Simon and Garfunkel is a single element (a group name) in this case.

The sentence in question is “My cousin’s music taste includes Fleetwood Mac, Simon and Garfunkel, and The Carpenters”.
It contains an Oxford comma.
It matters not a jot whether I want it to or not.

The ironic thing is the sentence we’re talking about was your own example of when an Oxford comma was needed.

‘Oxford comma needed:
My cousin's music taste includes Fleetwood Mac, Simon and Garfunkel, and The Carpenters.’

Then later on in the discussion you said it wasn’t one.

Garfunkel and the Carpenters would have been a decent band name in an Iggy Pop and the Stooges way.

No comma before and ever!

@Terracottateapot , Seriously! 😂
If you say ‘strictly speaking, it isn’t one,’ then you need to explain why.
You haven’t done that.

I have. I could explain again but you'll probably claim you don't understand.

No, you haven’t.

You’ve talked around the topic at length, but you haven’t actually explained why the comma before ‘and The Carpenters’ in the example above isn’t an Oxford comma ‘strictly speaking’.

You haven’t explained why you said it can be one ‘if I want it to be’, or why you gave it as an example of an Oxford comma early on in the discussion, and then later said it wasn’t one.

You haven’t explained this:
If you used it like in the example and your work came to me to be edited, it would match 'You mustn't use Oxford commas' and 'You must use Oxford commas'.

@Terracottateapot , I have.

I took your meaning to be that if the comma is necessary to prevent ambiguity, then it is not an Oxford comma. In other words, it's only an Oxford comma if superfluous to requirements but an option that some writers embrace.

If that is your position, I would be curious to know what authority you have for that semantic distinction. If it's not, I apologize but admit to being thoroughly confused by your posts.

I don't like an Oxford comma, however, they are increasingly standard now so I'm training myself to use them. Also, my son takes the piss if I don't use them so that's a motivation

I always mention them to my coms team. Drives me nuts!

AI and things like “Grammarly” suggest them op. I think it’s fine to have a conversation about not using them and explaining why…

They’re unnecessary, they look messy and they make it look like AI has written your copy.

I think it’s because you HAVE to have it there for the sentence to work

so if someone had a style guide saying NO OXFORD COMMAS

that sentence would still pass muster as it HAS to have a comma. Therefore it’s a necessary comma. (Can still be classed as an Oxford comma but predominately it’s a necessary comma - or just a comma!)

the second sentence the comma is more optional therefore can only be classed as an Oxford comma

What clarity??? Totally unnecessary.

It's still an Oxford comma, though.

There's no need to overcomplicate it by splitting hairs!

Me too.

I have comma rage 😤

That's how I read your posts too, @PleasantPedant. As though the minute an Oxford comma enhances legibility, it can't possibly be an Oxford comma because those are only ever frivolous and redundant cosmetic touches.

Or did you mean something else?

I was just trying to answer PP…

@FramboiseRoyale , @Beachtastic , the last comma in
"My cousin's music taste includes Fleetwood Mac, Simon and Garfunkel, and The Carpenters." is needed because without it the sentence would lack clarity.

If you want it to be an Oxford comma, you can say it is one because it is a comma after the last but one item in a list and before the and.

If you don't want it to be an Oxford comma then it isn't one because the comma is needed for clarity.

@Beachtastic , I have no objection to Oxford commas if the convention for the organisation is to use them. I don't think they are frivolous or redundant.

I know, sorry, I should have made it clear that was aimed at the explanation you kindly translated, not at you!